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Harley Bassman — In FED We Trust

Recorded hours after the Warsh Fed's hawkish 25bp hike, the Convexity Maven argues the problem isn't CPI but trust: breakevens sit at 2.34% while nominal yields are up 150bp, so the move is a fiscal credibility premium on a 6% deficit at full employment. He says the Fed should have gone 50 and quit forward guidance cold turkey. Hyperscaler bonds are "money good" even if the stocks fall, mortgage bonds are getting more negatively convex as the curve flattens, and three ETF structures need care. Bitcoin, he says, goes to zero.
2026-SEP-17 · MacroVoices #550 (Erik Townsend, Patrick Ceresna) · guest Harley Bassman ("The Convexity Maven"; inventor of the MOVE index; convexitymaven.com) · 1:07:22 (interview 00:00–46:50) · ▶ Watch · transcript · actionable insights
One-line take: "I don't care about the numbers. I care about trust." Bassman couldn't make an economic case for hiking at all, but says the Fed had to go 50 and stop: a 25bp hike with another promised by December "tortures" markets for 12 more weeks while Warsh weans them off forward guidance. The evidence that this is trust, not inflation: 10-year breakevens of 2.34% (the four-year average is 2.35%) against a 150bp rise in nominal yields. The fix is a credible fiscal path: uncap Social Security, raise the retirement age, means-test SS/Medicare, end step-up basis, revive Simpson-Bowles. The ~750 (units unclear) of price-insensitive hyperscaler borrowing competes with the Treasury, but their bonds are safe. Attribution: only 00:00–46:50 is Bassman. The Market Desk segment after 46:50 (Patrick Ceresna's TLT strangle; oil, dollar, gold, copper and nat-gas COT notes) is the hosts' view, marked below where referenced.

1. Stocks & names mentioned

TickerNameResearchViewWhat he saidAt
METAMeta PlatformsQT · SA · STK · FANeutralNeutral on the equity, positive on the credit: one of the hyperscalers whose bonds he calls "money good" even with another 50–200bp of spread, because "they have plenty of cash flow… to make the coupon payments." But "it doesn't mean their stock's not going to go down" — AI capex may cut profits.16:17
GOOGLAlphabet (Google)QT · SA · STK · FANeutralNeutral on the equity, positive on the credit: named among the hyperscalers with "underlying cash machines" that can service AI debt — "I think the bonds are solid," no bankruptcy short of a Standard Oil-style breakup. No view on the stock ("the equity I can't comment on").16:17
AMZNAmazonQT · SA · STK · FANeutralNeutral on the equity, positive on the credit: a hyperscaler whose AI borrowing is price-insensitive ("6, 8, 10, 12 — it doesn't matter") yet whose bonds are "probably money good." Only one or two of the five will win the build-out race, which is an equity risk, not a bond risk.16:17
MSFTMicrosoftQT · SA · STK · FANeutralNeutral on the equity, positive on the credit: in his hyperscaler list whose cash flow covers the coupons — "I just don't see a bankruptcy with the hyperscalers." The Global Crossing analogy (overbuilt capacity priced at a tenth of plan) is his risk case for the equity.16:17
ORCLOracleQT · SA · STK · FANeutralNeutral on the equity, positive on the credit: explicitly included with Meta, Google, Amazon and Microsoft as having "plenty of cash flow" to pay AI debt back over time — "the bonds are solid," even as the stock may fall.16:17
AnthropicAnthropic (private)Neutral"Can Anthropic go bust? Sure. But that's an equity problem, not a bond problem" — Anthropic isn't the borrower; the hyperscalers borrow to run its products. Cheap Chinese open-source models would cut the hyperscalers' costs, not their ability to pay.16:17
VVisaQT · SA · STK · FANeutralPassing mention — used only as the throughput comparison against Bitcoin: Bitcoin does ~750,000 trades a day, "Visa does that much every minute." No view on the stock.45:04
PYPLPayPal (Venmo)QT · SA · STK · FANeutralPassing mention — Venmo cited as proof a dollar stablecoin is nothing new: "we already have a stablecoin, kind of sort of. It's called Venmo." No view on PayPal.45:46
TLTiShares 20+ Year Treasury Bond ETFQT · SA · STK · FANeutralHost segment (Patrick Ceresna), not Bassman — referenced only. The Market Desk "trade of the week" built on Bassman's themes: a Jan-15-2027 long strangle (buy the $85 call ~0.82 and the $77 put ~0.97, ~$1.79 total) to own bond volatility with no view on direction. Bassman himself named no ETF.47:27
BTCBitcoinSANegative"I do think that Bitcoin at some point is going to zero. It's an active war against a sovereign state." He also dismisses it as a payment tool: ~750,000 trades a day, which Visa does every minute, makes it "kind of worthless" as a transactional tool.44:43

Not tabled: agency MBS (Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac / Ginnie Mae 30-year pools). This is Bassman's core argued view, but he names no ETF or ticker, so it sits in the talking points (23:00–29:35). Also not tabled: USD stablecoins in general (he favours them, no issuer named); leveraged daily-reset ETFs and high-yield return-of-capital ETFs (warnings, no tickers); Pets.com and Global Crossing (defunct dot-com examples); the S&P 500 / Russell and the hosts' oil, DXY, gold, copper and nat-gas COT commentary (Market Desk, not Bassman).

2. Talking points

01:39 Should have been 50, one and done

02:26 Warsh is weaning markets off forward guidance

04:42 The Supreme Court carved out the Fed

06:01 Fed–Treasury: symbiosis is good enough

08:21 Why trust is damaged: profits, sentiment, housing

10:24 Non-bank lending blunts the Fed

11:21 Hyperscalers: price-insensitive borrowers

13:24 The AI slow-down feud is political spectacle

14:52 Hyperscaler bonds are money good; the equity is another matter

18:22 Slide 12: breakevens say it isn't inflation

20:41 Is CPI rigged?

23:00 A mortgage bond is a covered call

24:57 Recouponing the stack

26:09 Convexity = unbalanced return

27:37 MBS spreads widening as the curve flattens

29:09 Index MBS ETFs: fall fast, then track Treasuries

31:38 Can AI take all the alpha?

35:56 "It's always about character… it's never different this time"

36:53 MMT victory lap

38:00 Page 15: his fiscal predictions

39:51 ETFs, part 1: linear vs daily-reset leverage

40:55 ETFs, part 2: return of capital

42:19 ETFs, part 3: the liquidity mismatch

44:43 Bitcoin to zero; USD stablecoins a "grand idea"

46:04 convexitymaven.com; the cleanest dirty shirt

47:02 Market Desk (hosts, not Bassman)

3. In plain English

META — Meta Platforms Neutral

Bassman separates the company's bonds (money Meta borrowed) from its stock (ownership). Meta is borrowing heavily to build AI data centres. He thinks lenders are safe because Meta's core advertising business throws off far more cash than it needs to pay the interest, so the bonds should be repaid even if borrowing costs rise another 0.5–2 percentage points. Whether the stock does well is a different question: all that spending could squeeze profits, and he won't call it.

GOOGL — Alphabet (Google) Neutral

Same split as the other hyperscalers. Google's search and cloud businesses are "cash machines" that can easily cover the interest on the AI debt, so he sees no bankruptcy risk unless the government breaks the company up the way it broke up Standard Oil. For shareholders, though, the AI arms race may end with only one or two winners, so the bond is safe and the stock is unrated.

AMZN — Amazon Neutral

Amazon is one of the "price-insensitive" borrowers: it will keep borrowing to build AI capacity whether rates are 6% or 12%, because it sees the race as existential. Bassman thinks that pushes up interest rates for everyone, the US Treasury included. He still thinks Amazon's lenders get paid back from its profitable core businesses. The stock carries the risk that the spending doesn't pay off.

MSFT — Microsoft Neutral

Microsoft's bonds are "solid" in his view, because its cash flow easily covers the coupon payments. His warning for the equity is the Global Crossing story from 25 years ago: companies laid huge amounts of fibre-optic cable expecting one price, and capacity ended up selling for a tenth of that. Overbuilding hurts owners, not necessarily lenders to cash-rich firms.

ORCL — Oracle Neutral

Oracle is on his list of hyperscalers whose debt he considers "money good." It has enough cash coming in to service and eventually repay what it borrows for AI. He explicitly says that doesn't mean the stock is safe; the view is about the credit only.

Anthropic — Anthropic Neutral

The host worried that free Chinese AI models could make Anthropic's paid models obsolete and sink the AI debt pile. Bassman's answer is that Anthropic isn't the one borrowing. The big cloud companies borrow to build the computers that run Anthropic's models. So Anthropic can fail, and he says it could, but that would wipe out its shareholders, not the bondholders of Meta, Google and the rest. If AI models get cheap, the hyperscalers' costs fall and they can pay their debts more easily.

BTC — Bitcoin Negative

Bassman thinks Bitcoin "at some point is going to zero." His reasoning is political: a private currency is "an active war against a sovereign state," and governments don't lose that fight. He also rejects it as a way to pay for things: the Bitcoin network handles about 750,000 transactions a day, which Visa processes in about a minute. He contrasts it with US-dollar stablecoins, tokens backed by Treasury bills, which he likes because they create more demand for US government debt.


For personal study — not investment advice. Source material © MacroVoices. Views in sections 1–3 are Harley Bassman's own (00:00–46:50) except where marked "Host segment"; the Market Desk segment reflects the hosts' views.