00:00 [music] >> In this type of environment, if we think the true rate of inflation is going to be skewing [music] more three to five versus the more historical, at least targeted benchmark [music] of two, I think that those trends are even stronger and more higher conviction today. >> How do you protect your money from higher inflation? [music] We're inflation-proofing your portfolio with James DeVolld at Horizon Kinetics, which manages more than $11 [music] billion in assets.
00:25 >> We're willing to ride out that volatility because we're owning the right assets in [music] the right business model. >> We're in an inflationary environment. Gold's at a six-month low. How do we explain the disconnect? >> Are [music] semiconductors hard assets? >> He tells us why just buying the S&P 500 does not protect you.
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02:01 The host and guests may maintain [music] positions in any securities discussed on the podcast. Always consult with qualified financial advisor or professional before making any investment decisions. In this episode, we discuss Sprott, which is [music] a stock that I own. Hey everyone, welcome to a brand new episode of In the Money with Amber Kanwar.
02:19 On this episode, we've got James Davolos of Horizon Kinetics, and the topic really is inflation. No matter which country you look at, inflation is at multi-year highs. In the EU and the US, it's at the highest level since 2023. In Canada, it's at the highest level since 2024. And we're going to get a bunch of reads of inflation. You know, the data will come in higher or lower relative to expectations, but there's no denying one trend.
02:45 Inflation around the world is trending back up. Not back down. And in fact, since the pandemic, inflation in the US has remained above target. That's 5 years that inflation has been running hotter than the Central Bank has hoped that it would. So, in this environment where we see inflation running hotter, what should you do with your money? What does it look like to inflation-proof your portfolio? James runs an ETF called the Inflation Beneficiaries ETF, and over the last couple of years, in fact, since inception, the fund is up 16% on an
03:20 annualized basis. They oversee about $11 billion in assets under management. And we look at what it takes to inflation-proof your portfolio. And before [snorts] you roll your eyes, it's not just about gold, which obviously, in 2026, has done nothing to inflation-proof your portfolio. We look at the businesses that do better in higher inflationary environments.
03:41 So, I'm really excited for this episode. Um especially because it's just one of those things you and I feel every day. It doesn't matter what the numbers show. We know that inflation is eating into our pocketbook. So, what can we do about it in our portfolio? And hey, by the way, if you're enjoying our show, please give us a comment, like, subscribe, wherever you're listening.
04:00 It goes further than you'll ever know. Let's get into it. >> [music] >> James, thank you so much for returning to the podcast. >> Thanks so much for having having me. >> You know, you were on about a year ago, April 2025, and I I looked back on that episode, and now with the benefit of hindsight, it looks very prescient.
04:25 You were really pounding the table about now is the time to rotate into hard assets. Inflation is going to continue to be a bugaboo, which it definitely has, and that as amazing as tech is, it's not going to be where leadership where where investors get leadership. Are you content with how your thesis unfolded over the past year? >> Yeah, you know, it's These things tend to happen in very non-linear patterns, so you can see whether any of the underlying markets, whether it's precious metals, energy, infrastructure,
05:03 etc. They kind of take leadership in different parts of the cycle, and now with the situation going on in the Strait of Hormuz, there's a lot of crosscurrents, but I think a lot of the trends and the thesis that we discussed a little bit over a year ago have not only borne out, but I think that those trends are even stronger, and we're higher conviction today.
05:24 So, to your point, I think that we're early in what's going to be a very long, protracted cycle here, and you know, as always, the the pattern of these returns is never going to be smooth and linear. >> And and to your point, it wasn't like last year you were on saying, "And then there's going to be war in Iran, and the Strait of Hormuz is going to close.
05:46 " You were really just talking about a prolonged environment where inflation was higher and I think that's a good umbrella for this conversation cuz you manage a strategy that is meant to protect your portfolio from inflation. So finding assets that can do well and deliver over and above how much inflation is eating away at your returns and I feel like we should start with maybe just first principles.
06:09 If you're looking to protect your portfolio from an inflationary environment, which we are definitely in, what rate of return should we be aiming for? >> So again, I think going back I love your point first principles. If you're looking to protect against inflation, everybody has these heuristics. Do I own tips? Do I own infrastructure? Do I own commodities? Do I own gold? And at the end of the day, what all of investments are trying to achieve is a nominal cash flow stream that grows with, ideally, in excess of inflation.
06:47 And so depending on where you're at on that risk spectrum, I think that you should anchor to kind of a minimum hurdle rate in that 3 to 5% with an addition for the risk premium relative to the asset that you're underwriting. So again, to back up, the really important thing here is that the cash flows can grow in line with nominal growth, which is both real and inflation index, plus it can come from a compound and protect margin.
07:17 So to answer your question more directly, in this type of environment, if we think the true rate of inflation is going to be skewing more 3 to 5 versus the more historical, at least targeted benchmark of two, I think that you should be looking at a minimum hurdle bench rate benchmark rate of return of around 10% in these assets.
07:37 >> And your fund has done well, 16% annualized over the last couple of years return. So, you're doing you're kind of delivering on that mandate. We're going to obviously get into specifics as we do, but at a high level, give me a laundry list of the assets that you want to be exposed to that can help deliver that rate of return.
07:59 >> It really comes down to real assets or hard assets because in order to have that nominal cash flow profile that's going to be indexed to inflation, and you need a real asset anchor that is finite, that is scarce, that has pricing power, but then critically any business model that has operating leverage.
08:21 So, the costs don't creep up with the revenues so that you actually benefit from that nominal cash flow growth. And so, when you think about the real assets that can actually achieve that kind of cash flow, it's going to be certain types of infrastructure, certain types of real estate, a lot of different companies within the broader commodity and natural resources ecosystem, but then there's some really eclectic businesses that we've gotten really well known for.
08:50 So, things involved in land, in minerals, in royalties, in water. And so, it really comes down to underwriting the asset and having a high confidence level that that asset is going to grow at in at or in excess of nominal growth rates of the broader economy, but then overlaying the business model so that you as a shareholder ultimately accrue those returns.
09:16 >> And we're going to talk about what those names are. You brought them with us for our pro pick with you for your pro pick segment, but I want to first challenge the idea um you know, you must have to stress test. You're saying now you're if inflation's going to be between 3 to 5% this is your portfolio.
09:32 How often are you challenging whether that's true because investors often receive a message often from central banks inflation is transitory, right? We've been hearing that for for 5 years by the way, inflation has been above um target for 5 years, which is half a decade. Um you know, we're talking about rate hikes possibly in the US, possibly in Europe as well.
09:56 Um talk to me about what it looks like to stress test your inflation outlook and what gives you confidence in that outlook. >> Yeah, it's a really good question and I I think it come one with the easy answer is that a lot of it comes down to the nuances of what exactly is inflation. And so here in the US, the CPI is the most commonly quoted benchmark and there's a lot of nuances to how that's calculated, but one of which is that it's very housing sensitive.
10:24 And one of the quirks of the index is that instead of something fairly intuitive with today and all of the technology looking at something like Zillow or some sort of a a composite positive what the actual home prices are, they use something called owner's equivalent rent, which is essentially calling up a bunch of homeowners and asking them what they think they can rent their home for.
10:46 So that deviates pretty materially from even a Case-Shiller measure, which is lagging relative to some of the more immediate terms, but I I think that it's it it's an impossible metric to accurately calculate because everybody's actual consumption basket is so radically different from one another's and it's so hard to actually do that on a rolling basis, but we focus on what we call localized or idiosyncratic inflation.
11:16 And so focusing on areas of the market where there's a much more discrete and identifiable supply and demand balance. And that's where we can have much higher levels of conviction around underrating a more inflationary outlook. Usually it's around a finite limited ability of supply to respond to what we think is resilient and growing demand.
11:40 And so, we don't not not we don't necessarily move the portfolio around based on episodic macro moves or events such as the Strait of Hormuz or deviations to macro policy because we're looking at 3 5 7-year cycles and trying to find things where if we're pretty confident what things are going to look like over 3 5 7 years, we're willing to ride out that volatility because we're owning the right assets in the right business models.
12:16 And I think that that's a much more thoughtful way to invest for the emergent macro regime because there's always going to be a lot of kind of short-term crosswinds and a lot of noise and volatility and kind of the measured and what's quoted inflation to your point. Um what the central banks are telling you versus what you're experiencing and I think particularly with a changing at the Federal Reserve in the United States here with Kevin Warsh coming in, he's actually been fairly explicit that he's looking to redefine exactly what inflation is and redefine a lot of these
12:49 parameters which ultimately, and I might be getting ahead of myself here, I I think it's kind of a way to push through more of this nominal growth visa vis inflation transmission mechanism without necessarily having to explain for it and perhaps having a um cover to maybe be a little bit more dovish whether it's with rates or the Fed balance sheet.
13:13 >> Change the definition and then you can go and and cut [clears throat] rates. Um this all brings me to gold. Gold, what does everybody say? Gold is your hedge on inflation. We're in an inflationary environment. We've received an inflationary shock. Gold's at a 6-month low. How do we explain the disconnect? >> So, coming into this year, everything was just flying, firing on all cylinders for gold.
13:40 I actually got really concerned in the spring when there was a macro conference here in the United States and people I really, really respect, everybody was pounding the table at gold at 5,000, 6,500. And it's because of what I just mentioned. You look at the profligate spending in the United States, running 6, 7, 8% deficits, which is $2 trillion a year.
14:00 And I think that that's now structural. And the whole world, I think, is coming to that same conclusion because a lot of the strength of the United States, and for that matter, many Western economies, is rooted in the government spending. And then it kind of all of the different ways that that flows through into the economy.
14:21 Is it the most efficient? Absolutely not. But I think it'd be ignorant to ignore the fact about what a large driver that has been to the economic resilience and growth in the West. And so, at the margin, what started this whole gold party was at the margin, you saw any number of central banks starting to increase their purchases. And some people can say, "Well, this is de-dollarization.
14:45 " And all of these other narratives, but I I don't think that's really what it is. It's saying, "At the margin, instead of owning a Treasury or a Eurobond or a JGB at pretty mediocre yields, I'm going to buy something that I think is going to preserve value, which is gold." And the central bank started the party, and then you started then ultimately you had ETF buyers coming in, you had some momentum coming in, and everybody just loved the narrative because it was really hard to argue with why demand wouldn't continue to rise. Supply's a
15:18 little bit trickier because you really don't know what's going to get scrapped and what's going to enter the market through investment side because we mines are fairly small in terms of the overall annual balances, but what changed was with the conflict in the Middle East, typically in a geopolitical conflict, you have a positive correlation to geopolitical unrest, you have a positive correlation in this case to oil, dollar correlation's getting a little bit squishier, but something interesting happened here where
15:54 seems like whenever oil goes up, gold goes down. The initial explanation was the Turkish Central Bank was a large net seller of gold at the very beginning in this process, which is interesting because they're not actually a large oil producer. They're not necessarily being hit by a lack of flows through the Strait of Hormuz, but ever since then, it seems like a positive headline around a resolution of that conflict, gold goes up, oil goes down.
16:26 Re-initiation of the conflict, you have oil goes up and gold goes down. So, there's clearly something going on in the plumbing, how some of these holders are funding their gold positioning. I'm sure there's a little bit of dollar sensitivity here, but I view this as noise in a much bigger macro regime.
16:48 And so, reference back my comments to your earlier question, structurally, it's pretty hard not to see why people, whether it's institutions, sovereigns, investors, retail, etc., would want to continue increasing their value to some form of hard store value, but understanding there's a lot of interim volatility here. So, the time horizon and then also the investment modality, meaning the business model of choice, are going to be very important in allowing you to see this to fruition if we're correct in our longer-term outlook versus the shorter-term noise.
17:26 >> So, with a 20% pullback in bullion, almost a 20% pullback in bullion, you're still sticking with your call, gold gold higher. >> I think over the long term, absolutely. Short term, clearly there's something funky going on in the funding market and with correlations and who knows with algorithms and momentum trading.
17:46 So, but yes. >> You know, it's interesting you were referencing a conference 6 months ago or so, where people were talking, you know, really pounding the table on gold and wary that it was becoming too consensus. I was just at a conference last week featuring Bridgewater and Gavekal, which are, you know, two very prominent macro um players in the market.
18:09 Gavekal on the research side and and Bridgewater, of course, largest hedge fund. And you know what they were talking about? Hard assets and switching into real assets. And now I'm going to ask you the question, a year later from from your when you were on talking about hard assets, it's a you know, not the consensus call.
18:27 Now I'm going to ask you, is hard assets too consensus? >> I don't think so because it's actually so niche that a lot of people don't even know what hard assets even means. But I would also say Louis Gave and the team at Gavekal, they're always very unique independent thinkers, as is Ray Dalio at Bridgewater. And I think that they're approaching their thesis through a very unique lens.
18:55 And so, while yes, they are obviously Bridgewater, largest hedge fund in the world, very respected, very well sought after, I'd say Louis is a little bit more niche, but it's a far cry from having the Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgans yelling this from the rooftops because the institutional imperative is still to say you have to be long mag seven, you have to be long the S&P 500, just basically stay long what we're selling you.
19:21 And so, while it's certainly feels great to have companies such as those two firms coming into the fray, they're approaching it from a very similar fundamental background that we are, which is far from consensus. And so, um I'd say, you know, when you go to a conference in New York City with all of the major US investment banks promoting hard assets and real assets, I think that's the time to get concerned.
19:48 Uh hopefully we're, you know, years if not a decade away from that, but that that'll be a high-class problem to have if it comes to that. >> So, um a lot of these mag seven players are kind of the reason maybe you want to own real-world assets because they're pouring trillions, it will be trillions of dollars into these assets.
20:06 What's interesting is the mag seven stocks are flat for 2026. They haven't done anything. And you might say, "Well, how is that ever I keep hearing it's a tech-driven rally." Semiconductors are up 83% over the same time. Are semiconductors hard assets in your mind? >> I can't say that they are. Um they're a historic Cycles change, but historically they're a depending on where you're at in the semi spectrum, you're varying degrees of a commoditized product.
20:39 And historically, it's a very long capex cycle to bring on new supply. And then once that supply comes on, um it's there. And so, then the market washes out and there's no sustainable pricing. Now, the the advocates of the market will tell you this cycle has changed. There's rational supply, there's consolidated supply. Maybe that's right.
21:00 I'm not a a semi specialist, um but I think anything that has a a tie into technology and there's an ability to kind of replicate that. I mean, who knows if is China going to show up to this party and start adding all of this supply, but then will Western users be willing to use that? Again, it's it's really hard to say.
21:22 Um we're watching the the semi the direct semi market from the sidelines with um a little bit of shock, but uh it's it's certainly interesting to see the movements here. >> Well, it's interesting you talk about tech. Even this week the S&P index makers announced they're kicking out Campbell Soup.
21:41 They're kicking out Pool Corp. They're adding in Marvell, um which has been on a on a rocket ship and and a company called Flex, which has benefited from the AI trade. And people might think, well, why do I need, you know, you know, what is diversification anyway, right? Why do I need something that that manages my inflation? The S&P 500, you know, just buying that through an ETF, is that not diversified? It feels like every day the S&P takes more and more steps to be a levered play on just one thing, which is the AI buildout.
22:14 >> You know, it's funny you mention that. They they keep playing these games, and I remember [clears throat] when they reclassified, I want to say it was um if you actually took at the true information take technology exposure of the S&P 500, but they put Apple and they put Amazon in consumer discretionary. But if you actually >> They changed telcos.
22:41 I think Meta I think Meta lives actually with like AT&T. >> Yeah, so if you actually took the telco that's true tech, consumer that's actually tech, and then the actual IT, the concentration in the index is uh borderline preposterous, but you it's not even remotely diversified anymore, and anybody knows that.
23:02 Now, to their credit, the S&P actually pushed back on SpaceX's attempt to fast track their inclusion into the index, which I applaud them for because that would have just been I think that would have been the end of indexation, which has just been this huge kind of ramp over the past two decades. But to just allow a company at that valuation to fast track when they're not putting any stock in the float, clearly looking to get an upward you know, price impulse on the stock.
23:34 So, I applaud them there, but if you look at the concentration before that, it's in the US market, the S&P 500 has definitely been a long beta tech market for years and it's only getting more and more concentrated as you kind of see these market these movements that we're seeing today. >> And I noticed a big absence of that kind of in your fund and I I imagine that's on purpose.
23:59 >> It's not deliberate in the sense that we're saying we're going to exclude that. It's just those business models aren't really aligned with our mandate. Um especially when you do look at the underlying businesses, whether it's enterprise cloud, the capital intensity of the data center build out. Again, a lot of these companies are all so incredibly sensitive to advertising revenue and so you've been huge beneficiaries of a secular shift from analog to digital ad.
24:29 So, when that matures, what do those revenues look like? Then it's going to all be about pricing and penetration and so again, not our expertise, but definitely not a business model that we think is fits within our mandate. >> You've got something called an internet fund, but 50% of the fund looks like it's owning Bitcoin.
24:50 Um tell me a little bit about that and Bitcoin's having a tough time right now. You want to talk about a levered play on tech. Um Bitcoin has been that kind of a levered triple Q. >> Yes, our founder Murray Stahl, to his credit, he identified the merits of blockchain vis-a-vis the Satoshi white paper over 10 years ago, I think about 12 years ago now, and a lot of the thesis rhymes with the gold thesis around the finite supply, but then there's also kind of the the tech application where you do have these ultimate use cases for blockchain, for Bitcoin, and you know,
25:32 the the concentration of the internet fund is a function of being very early with a very small-sized bet that's now gotten so enormous. Um, but I think the Bitcoin example is not all that different from gold, where even if the long-term fundamentals appear to be so compelling, to your point, shorter-term correlations with QQQ and tech flows and any number of other beta.
26:00 I mean, I can't say I think that these Bitcoin treasury companies that are buying in on leverage are good for market structure, but it really requires, again, the the need to zoom out and really find the right modality and business model to express a long-term view that's kind of consistent with your risk and and holding profile.
26:21 >> And and a 50% drawdown from the fall of last year, which isn't unusual for Bitcoin, and it has tons of these 50% plus drawdowns, long-term, do you remain constructive on the price? >> We do. We think kind of you there's a lot of different frameworks to look at Bitcoin. You can kind of look at the hash rate and the mining economics and the halving cycle, the stock to flow, but I think all of the reasons that you want to own real-world assets also has a very similar thesis that applies to blockchain and Bitcoin. And
26:57 I'd say Bitcoin needs to be differentiated and distinguished from all of the other cryptos. But something that I've also noticed is that any number of say the sub-30, 35-year-old wealth accumulators in the world that have sympathy to our real-world, real-asset thesis, they see a way to play that through crypto and through Bitcoin.
27:24 And so uh yeah, I I I think that this is unfortunately kind of there's a lot of kind of hype around different exchange approvals and different products and different ETFs. And so things kind of overshoot to the upside, overshoot to the downside. And you know, that's all part of a broader trend, especially with an emergent asset class here.
27:43 >> And and people, you know, as much as Warren Buffett talks about getting rich slowly, people like to get rich uh quickly. You play in in hard assets and infrastructure. We actually got a question from somebody asking, you know, does that mean your time horizon for investment returns when you're investing in infrastructure? Like help us understand, how should an investor think about their time horizon? >> So when you're looking at infrastructure, there's a few different ways to play it. But if you're looking
28:11 at a not I mean a nominal cash flow yield where a decent portion of that is going to be distributed to you as a shareholder. So there's kind of a yield base, but it's a growing cash flow with moats, with pricing power, with margin levers. I think that that's really a three-to-five-year minimum hold. Um you know, Chris Hohn at TCI, his entire one of the best-performing large hedge funds in the world over the past uh 20 years, he's migrated essentially his entire mandate looking at dominant, monopolistic, oligopolistic infra
28:46 assets. And that's really consistent with how he looks at the world. And so I think there's if there there might be no one better to take cues from and he would agree with that kind of 3 to 5 year minimum. But ultimately to his point it's a forever hold. So you're basically looking at the terminal value of something that has so much value in that terminal value because again the margin, the pricing, the nominal cash flow.
29:13 So it's definitely not something where you're looking for a quick headline to get rich quick or you know, a rate cut or some sort of a episode or catalyst. It's quite the opposite. >> All right, well that that question was from Alex on Instagram. Let's dip into the mailbag and see if we can find some of those long-term opportunities. >> [music] >> The mailbag is brought to you by Hamilton ETFs.
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30:05 MIX, think of it as an evolution of 60/40. It combines 60% equities, 20% bonds, and 20% gold. Gold acts as a third layer of diversification, which has historically been a safe haven during market stress, an inflation hedge, and less correlated to bonds and stocks. So instead of relying on two asset classes, you now have three.
30:27 When you back test the mixed asset index back to 2004, you get similar returns to the S&P 500. And when you add leverage, modest leverage, 25%, the index has historically outperformed. And importantly, the index's volatility has been lower with this 60/20/20 approach, even after modest leverage. And the index's drawdowns during market sell-offs has been less.
30:50 An example is during the financial crisis, the S&P 500 fell 55% peak to trough. The mixed asset index only fell 27% and even with leverage, it only fell 33%. So, you get historically shallower declines, smoother returns, and typically faster recoveries. And that can matter because investing is not just about returns. It's about whether you can stay invested long enough to achieve them.
31:15 Mix is designed to seek long-term growth with a more balanced and more manageable investing experience. A modern mix of stocks, bonds, and gold built for today's market. For more information, visit hamiltonetfs.com or visit the link in the show notes. >> [music] [music] >> Okay, our first question in the mailbag. We talked about gold, you're constructive long-term.
31:39 We've actually got a question on silver. Do you have a favorite silver miner? Will an Iran war conclusion drive these stocks higher? This question coming from James on Instagram. What do you think? >> I like silver a lot. Some people describe it as the higher beta version of gold, but it is hard to see a world where you're constructive on gold and silver doesn't participate because it's a much narrower, less liquid market.
32:07 So, when there is a buying impulse, you see much larger moves, but it does kind of cut both ways. There's also an interesting industrial demand around electrification, around solar, etc. Mining is is difficult. Again, you have a lot of risk around single mines, cost overruns, reinvesting your CapEx. And so, while there's definitely some decent miners out there, we we choose to take a kind of lower risk approach through Wheaton Precious Metals.
32:38 So, Wheaton is a very large uh Canadian-based streaming and royalty company. It was actually originally called Silver Wheaton because they revolutionized the model called streaming where to be just to be distinguished from royalties, instead of just getting a straight cash flow based on silver production, they pay a very small amount per silver on an ongoing basis.
33:01 And so, it's more of a working capital monetization for the miner. And so, if you kind of look at the overall performance and beta of Wheaton Precious versus say one of its peers in Franco-Nevada, I think you get enough of the precious Excuse me, enough of the silver exposure to make it worth your while even though they're diversifying more and more into gold without taking kind of outsized mining um and business model risk.
33:30 >> So, I mean, it's been volatile. Silver's down 40% from the peak. Wheaton Precious Metals is down a little better, but still down about 30%. Talk us through Hold our hand through the volatility. What are we supposed to do with that? Uh what do you see as a turning point? >> Well, again, back to the question.
33:49 I do think for whatever reason, the conflict in the Strait of Hormuz, oil up, gold and silver down, gold and silver up, oil down, I do think any type of long-term solution there, you go back to the pre-conflict environment where this wave of liquidity was finding a lot of ways into precious metals for very good reason.
34:14 Um I think that even if you do have the Strait of Hormuz open tomorrow, there's going to be a lot of choppiness around supply chains normalizing, figuring out exactly what's going on with production levels, with OPEC, with kind of non-OPEC. And so, I wouldn't expect I'd expect a knee-jerk reaction to kind of maybe still in some of the losses, but then maybe a little bit more volatility from there.
34:41 Um but again, I think owning it through a royalty gives you that flexibility to extend your time horizon and really kind of look out and say, well, there's a lot of non-producing assets here and so, as those become economic, whether it's at 50, 60, 70, 80 dollar an ounce, ultimately, that's almost a free call option to you as a shareholder.
35:05 So, while you can definitely get higher beta and um a little bit more of that driven exposure through minors or silver itself or futures, we think that consistent with the way we look at the world, the royalty is really the way to your point, holding hands and sleeping well at night is just the easiest way to do it.
35:22 >> We've got a question on Brookfield. How can you talk about, you know, hard asset investments without talking about Brookfield? Sid on Instagram wants to know about whether Brookfield Renewable and Brookfield Infrastructure, which are two separate companies under the Brookfield umbrella, if you think they'll ultimately um merge and get rid of their kind of dot UN, their kind of income um oriented structure.
35:49 >> I don't think so. I'm so, Brookfield's been very good at recognizing what the market tells them over the years. As if you recall, they internalized their Brookfield Property Partners, which was similar to Brookfield Renewables and Brookfield Infrastructure. Um the market was undervaluing it, so they basically collapsed it and internalized it under what is now Brookfield Corp BN, to be distinguished from BAM, Brookfield Asset Management, which is the asset manager.
36:18 But so, when you look at these vehicles that are the the permanent capital vehicles, they have a trust or an LP here in the United States, which is basically a tax pass-through, and a lot of people like those because they want to basically clip those dividends, but they also listed a separate corporate share class where that's consolidated, which makes it a lot easier for institutions to own those.
36:43 And so, the corporations actually traded a premium to the trusts and the partnerships because there is a lot it it's a lot easier for institutions to own them, and you don't have the tax pass-through, and I think that Rothschild recognizes the value A of having the targeted SWEVs, whether it's renewables or infrastructure, but then also maintaining the trust and the corporate um share classes.
37:11 >> We've got a question on Glencore. This gives us an opportunity to talk about base metals as well, which we haven't gotten into. Um do you like Glencore? I'm thinking about buying now. This question coming from Charles. Glencore obviously has had a good run, um you know, with the price of copper, you know, hitting record highs.
37:29 >> Yeah, so I I think if you if Glencore didn't have its coal exposure, then I think Glencore would be trading at many multiples higher than it is today. If you were to look at any of the copper-focused mining companies in the world, but uh again, they really play the long game, and they do have a legacy thermal coal business that the market hates.
37:54 Um we've been supposed to be getting off of coal worldwide for a decade now, and we still continue to have all-time records, and that is going to plateau at some point. Um but they're doing something interesting if again, you have a long enough time horizon, which is that by buying the tech assets in Canada, they have basically said, "Look, we're going to roll in these assets, and then we're going to ultimately cash flow, and then when the capital structure will permit the debt on both assets to sustain itself, separate the coal and
38:30 then kind of ex-coal Glencore, which to your point is going to be a much more of a conductive metal, copper, zinc, nickel, ferrochrome focused business. If you were to comp that to global peers, it would trade at a radically higher multiple. So, again, I think with the appropriate time horizon, but also understanding that there's going to be some volatility around coal and some ambiguity over when and how and at what price the coal assets will trade at, I think it's a very interesting special situation set up, and the price is kind
39:03 of at a point where it's really difficult to ignore. >> So, to your point, Glencore, even though it's run up trading around This is really simplistic, but 14 times forward earnings. If I compare it to like a Freeport, is that a Is that the right comparison? >> Exactly. So, if >> Yes, 25 times. >> Exactly.
39:23 There So, you strip out the coal, and then you do like-for-like on copper, you could almost justify You're almost getting the coal for free or a negative value, which it's worth something, especially if you can pay down your debt. So, pretty interesting situation. Just I think it's it's a little bit longer than most people are willing to wait and a little bit more ambiguity around the structure.
39:41 >> What is your base metal outlook? >> I think it's really hard to not see upside in copper. I don't I don't know how high that is, but all of these if if you're bullish on semiconductors and data centers and power generation and all of these things that are getting people much more excited around AI, they're very copper intensive.
40:04 It's a very iron intensive, and so there's definitely a large base metal both ferrous and non-ferrous component to that. But one caveat is the China factor, where China has been such a huge factor in um the consumption of copper and iron and also increasingly on the supply side as well. And so, I think where the market is having a little bit trouble reconciling is, okay, what is the China build up going to look like, especially and what is the structure and composition of Chinese economy going to look like? But, notwithstanding that
40:44 known unknown, um this kind of right-tail higher nominal growth world that is almost necessary to kind of manage the deficits that are going on and and kind of the growth in the entitlements worldwide, I think that's all constructive around these markets uh predicated on kind of there's not like a huge surprise around the China um supply and demand balance.
41:07 >> We've got a question on Bunge. Um is it worth buying here? It's up 70% over the past year. Does it still have room to run? Question coming from Clary Clara. Agribusiness, kind of the middleman between farmers and the people who sell food. >> Yeah, I I've I've owned Bunge on and off over the years.
41:28 It's actually really interesting because they just closed on their acquisition of Viterra, which your Canadian audience might recall as the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool way back when. I think about a decade ago, they changed their name and were bought by Glencore of all companies. Yeah, as a renamed Viterra and then it was bought now by Bunge.
41:48 But, so Bunge's really re-divert re- They really needed that to diversify themselves away from the soybean sensitivity. And so, soybean or soy crush, you you crush that into both soybean meal, which is mostly animal feed, and then soybean oil, which goes into a lot of uh human foods. But, I had a thesis going back pre-COVID around these agribusinesses, so ADM, Cargill, Bunge being global food infrastructure and basically being these critical companies that both they source a lot of the ag, they process it, they merchandise it, and then they get it
42:25 where it needs to be in the world. And coming back to China, one of the surprises was the emergence of China in global soybean crush. And so the margins, which I thought were going to be much more sustainable as we went into a more fragmented world post-COVID or during COVID, didn't prove to be resilient, but the management team at Bunge, I think, has done a really good job diversifying their business and doing all of the right things.
42:57 And so um I think a little bit of the run-up here has been around some of the volatility around supply chains with the Middle East conflict, but I we still maintain a position in uh some of our funds, and I think that it's still a process that we're evaluating and and have some confidence that there's more room for this to run.
43:15 >> We've got a question on uh what was called Ritchie Bros., but RB Global. What do you think about it? It recently delivered strong earnings and hiked its dividend. This question coming from Scott. Um it's a heavy equipment auctioneer. It's been around for a very long time, and it can be volatile. Recently, it has been volatile.
43:36 Um what what do you think about the long-term prospects of this kind of business? >> I love this business. Uh we own it. Um you know, it's to your point, it's a heavy equipment auctioneer. So, think of anything from excavators to backhoes to you know, in- industrial trucking and machinery and and farm crop harvesters.
43:57 And so this is a very, very niche market. And so their ability to pull all of these auction agencies around the world, but then also do it online. There's some other value-add businesses but so think about what is probably one of the most AI resilient businesses I've seen. And so you could say well like AI could create an an auction pool but sure but they're basically so dominant and they have physical locations to support these online locations and I think the market misunderstands some of the cyclicality and variability
44:37 of the business which it's sometimes just not predictable kind of the loads of equipment that come up for auction but 15 times EBITDA for a 30% margin business that's so dominant. I think that this is a company that you'll look at 5 years from now and think wow that was a pretty obvious kind of long-term winner here.
44:58 >> Let's end in the mailbag with nuclear. Um I'd love to get your thoughts on maybe nuclear at a high level. We got a specific question from Brian about NextGen. What are your long-term thoughts here? Um you know, it's been volatile. Brian's been kind of trading around it. What do you do either with NextGen in particular and and I'd love to get your thoughts on nuclear in general? >> We're very big proponents of nuclear as a thesis but play that through uranium.
45:28 I think the uranium supply and demand math is very compelling and there's people like Cara there's thesis that try to break that and you know, I think it's pretty easy to underwrite a pretty compelling uranium thesis. Um don't really have much interest in the small modular reactor or some of the more speculative names but you know, NextGen as a uranium miner um they have a lot of exposure to spot prices.
45:59 Um uranium markets are notoriously opaque so sometimes it's very difficult, particularly for retail investors, to know what contracted prices with utilities are versus a fairly volatile um thinly traded spot price, but one of the biggest problems with investing in uranium miners, even in markets where it was fluctuating between oversupply, drawing down inventories, etc.
46:29 , was that these projects are notorious for being delayed and costing much more than uh reported. And this is true for almost every commodity, but particularly true for uranium. Um I think NextGen has incredible assets, and the experts that I know feel very strongly about the long-term value of these. Um I think it's a little bit easier just to play it through the large liquid Cameco stake, where Cameco is large, it's liquid, it's geopolitically stable, and then they have a call option in their Westinghouse business.
47:05 And so, Westinghouse, as you recall, if the US and other countries really build these AP1000 turbines, and they can broaden their treatment, where there's as much of a backlog in enrichment and treatment uh of uranium as there is actually in uranium production, it's the you know, the valuation is definitely run up, but it's large and it's liquid, and it's probably going to be the beneficiary of a lot of flows as uranium kind of continues its ascent higher.
47:32 But I think again, for people that have a little bit higher risk tolerance, knowing that there might be some delays and cost overruns, uh NextGen's definitely one of the the higher quality, let's call it, junior uh producers in the space, or soon to be producer. >> So So even though there's been some consolidation in uranium, both in Cameco and in in NextGen, in terms of, you know, the prices haven't gone up, they were parabolic, and now they're kind of stalled at those elevated levels.
47:58 Sounds like you're still constructive for the long term. >> Absolutely. And Amber, if you notice like the commonality between so many things we talked about here today, whether it's gold and silver, Bitcoin, some of the um some of the base metal markets, it's all of these trends were kind of really firmly in force, and then there was some sort of this kind of liquidity algorithmic momentum kind of reset that happened with the Middle East conflict.
48:25 And so I'm not saying that that that once things get resolved, or depending on how they get resolved, it's just going to continue to that trend, but I do think that the long-term fundamentals that were supporting that have not necessarily changed. >> Okay, well, let's find out where your conviction lies right now and get into your pro picks.
48:48 >> [music] >> Pro [music] Picks is brought to you by ATB Financial. With over 100 billion in assets, ATB Financial [music] is powering possibilities for more than 843,000 financial services clients. ATB Capital Markets Capital Markets is a leading [music] North American investment firm providing holistic corporate and capital markets advice and full-service financial [music] solutions. Visit atb.
49:15 com/inthemoney for more information. Before we get into your pro picks, your new ones for this round, June 8th, 2026, I want to go back to the picks that you had April 15th, 2025. Aris Water Solutions, as you mentioned, you know, one of your hard assets that you like, real-world assets, is water. Um it's been a little bit tricky, right? And in some areas of the market, Aris got taken out for a tiny a little bit of a premium depending when you got in.
49:45 When you recommended it was trading around 23 bucks. It got taken out by Western Midstream Partners at $25. Tell me about Did you like that deal? What's going on with water in general? >> The thesis with water is I think it's pretty simple. The Permian Basin is almost perhaps the most important reservoir in global oil supply and demand balances.
50:11 And a byproduct of that oil is this produced water, and it produces a lot of water that needs to be transported, treated, and disposed of. And Aris was one of an oligopoly of players that was definitely subscale, but I thought that there was a path to them reaching scale and kind of competing and being operating amongst some of the other more scaled peers.
50:38 Uh I think they chose rather than trying to fight that fight, they would merge in with Western Midstream, which is a large largely um gas gathering system. Um and the management team, which is private equity backed at Solaris, uh has focused a lot of their efforts now on Solaris Energy Infrastructure, which is one of the uh zeitgeisty AI comp beneficiaries, where they kind of produce they produce these turbines or not turbines, basically generators that were were used for frac sites and now can be used for direct power generation. And so, we
51:14 still really like the water business and think that there's a decade plus of growth both in price and volume. And Aris, I think got to I think that there was a lot of reasons for why they chose the path that they did, but there's I think other ways to play it that have some more legs here. >> And like what? Now I have to ask you.
51:37 >> So, one of the companies I don't want to jump ahead here, but >> Oh, did you Did you bring them in ProPicks? >> Yes. >> Okay, okay, then we won't. Then everybody just has to stay tuned. Um I want to motor through your your other two. Prairie Sky did very well, up 52% still like it here? >> Yeah, like it a lot.
51:55 I mean, 20 million plus acres in the Western Western Canadian sedimentary basin with just huge long-term optionality run by a really astute management team. A lot of interesting things going on now with different technologies extracting oil and gas and we're actually starting to see some more visibility around kind of LNG in Canada.
52:15 So, again, 5 10-year outlook love the company. >> TMX Group, this is what I want to come to. Actually, it's only flat from when you picked it for but it but it's had a garbage year. So have most exchanges. Um, we got a couple of questions on this. Carlo wanted to know about the pullback. Paul wants to know about exchanges in general.
52:34 First, let's explain before you tell me why you like it, let's explain why are exchanges getting run over right now? >> So, there were really kind of two things and they they they breezed through the first hit and now the new hit which I'll get to you but there is this AI obsolescence risk that's been applied to all of these businesses, particularly data companies.
52:55 And so, if you have a a lot of these exchanges have a proprietary data set which is part of the business model. So, if you want to trade on the exchange, if you want the data, if you want the connectivity, there's some value-add services. It's very proprietary. But that's very distinct from other companies that are selling financial data, or research data, uh, real estate data, etc.
53:20 That is non-proprietary and an AI scrubber could theoretically pull that. So, some of the exchanges took a little bit of a hit around that AI disintermediation story, let's call it, third, fourth quarter of last year. But just last week, the United States approved, um, what are bit a Bitcoin perpetual futures, so perps? And so up these were previously not allowed to be traded in the United States and a lot of people including the CME thinks they're actually swaps which would fall under CFTC regulation and where they're not allowed, but basically
53:59 this allows you to speculate with very high amounts of leverage on an underlying asset. So in this coin Bitcoin unlike a future it never expires. So you can use many many terms of leverage to buy a perpetual future that never expires in Bitcoin. >> Sounds great. >> Sorry. >> Sounds great. Sounds very safe. >> Yeah, it >> [laughter] >> But so that that's the the irony of the market reaction where some of these companies have traded off so radically is that there's very little utility for this for a hedger or even a speculator because
54:35 there's not a finite payout or term. >> Mhm. >> So think about it with something like oil. If you're a refiner and you need to hedge exposure, you can buy a future at a certain price that you know is going to close out on this date. Or you could buy a call or a put to help to hedge your inputs.
54:55 These perpetuals are purely speculative and they're very oriented towards retail which is a very small amount of the user base of TMX, CME, ICE, BATS, MYX, et cetera. And so it's just really surprising that it got this big of a reaction in the market um which is actually continuing even through today. I thought the market would have realized how illogical this was, but sometimes the narrative can take a hold of itself until there's kind of something to confirm otherwise.
55:26 >> You own X, it's TMX Group. Um you brought a new one, but I want to know at a high level why does um why do stock exchanges or exchanges in general fit with your overall inflation protection, I want to own real world assets thesis. What's so great about the business model and why do you love it? >> I view them as financial infrastructure.
55:52 So you're matching buyers and sellers and any number of financial products. Uh derivatives are the most profitable, so that's going to be interest rates, currencies, commodities and index futures. But there's zero proprietary risk, meaning you're not putting any balance sheet at risk. So if you and I want to engage in a contract where you sell me a future and I buy a future in the TSX, the exchange takes a revenue basically revenue per contract or a cut out of that transaction with zero proprietary risk.
56:26 But if you think about it, the it's essentially financial infrastructure and the growth of this exchange volume is really nominal GDP. So you can have very high nominal growth which flows through into the exchange and it doesn't really matter if there's high inflation driving that and so real growth could be low.
56:46 But because it's basically just a computer system, the margins are very protected. So a lot of exchanges operate at 40, 50, 60% operating margins. So in the world that we envision, we see again higher nominal growth, new product innovation, but then also increased volatility which also adds to volume. So all of these attributes packaged into one of the best business models that we've ever seen makes it a really interesting way to kind of supplement our portfolios through exchanges all over the world.
57:19 >> And you've brought a small cap version of that in Miami International Financial Exchange for equities and options. It owns smaller exchanges like the Bermuda Stock Exchange and Minneapolis Grain. What is so exciting here? And it's also sold off, you know, recently with the group.
57:36 What's so exciting about this smaller cap play versus, you know, just buying a tried and true large cap like TMX Group? >> So, full disclosure, our chairman and founder, Murray Stahl, was foundational in founding and assembling the Miami Exchange over the past decade or so, even more. Um but in its current um market it is it came public last year.
58:01 >> Mhm. >> And its main product that the market focuses on are what are called multi-listed options. So, these are non-proprietary, unlike the VIX and the S&P options at the S&P, meaning you could trade a option, a call option on Google uh on any number of exchanges throughout the United States. And because the revenue per contract and the margin on this was so low, many of the other incumbent exchanges basically ignored it and focused only on their high-margin proprietary index options and futures.
58:38 So, because of that, MIAX has gained almost 18, well, it was 18% market share in US multi-listed options markets. And now they're actually reorienting that product mix towards the higher value, so multi-leg complex options where they have a higher revenue share. But this all happened in a market that was fairly moribund.
59:01 You know, options was you know, fairly low single-digit growth. And then between 2019 and 2026, you grew from 16 million options traded a day to about 63 million. So, that's about a 4x or a 28% compound annual growth rate. So, that business is phenomenal and growing, and they have a lot of technology and different ways to kind of supplement that.
59:28 But so if you underwrite that business, I think that you're getting the exchange for probably a low at worst fair valuation here. But then there's all of these different call options. So one of the interesting and timely projects they're working on are the Bloomberg index options and futures. So the B500 B100.
59:49 Now this is a competitor in theory to the S&P 500. But instead of there being this committee that governs the S&P 500, which is shown to be fairly arbitrary at times, Bloomberg is fully rules-based. >> Mhm. >> And one of the inclusion criteria is that it allows these IPOs to be admitted much more quickly. And so investment merits of investing in SpaceX and Tropic, um, OpenAI, any of this pipeline of IPOs aside, exchanges are trading venues.
1:00:26 And basically trading that gets trading. And so in a world where a index that is algorithmically driven and has different fundamental characteristics to the S&P, it's a much higher margin and higher value-add business than their traditional multi-listed options. So pun intended, this is a very large call option embedded within now one of the largest options exchanges in the United States.
1:00:55 So we again look at this as a primary beneficiary of to your point earlier, Amber, the get-rich-quick where people want to own these options. There's zero-data expiration where it's a single day or a single week to expiry. All of that is really accruing to Mayex and they've done a really good job of product innovation and market placing to make sure that they're going to be one of the primary beneficiaries of this trend.
1:01:20 >> Sounds like it could be a takeover candidate, too. >> We hear that an awful lot, and you look at their size relative to a lot of their peers. Um one of the beauties of the exchange world is why you've seen so much M&A is that even though these are 40, 50, 60% operating margin businesses, uh you roll that into somebody else's technology, SG&A, compliance, etc.
1:01:47 , and there's always a lot of room for additional margin when you're combining two different venues. >> Your second pick is Sprott. Um and it looks a lot like a gold chart. Parabolic move until January 2026, and then it's pulled back. Why do you like it here? >> So, the uh obviously the Canadian audience and even worldwide audience would probably be familiar with Eric Sprott's asset management firm.
1:02:13 Um Eric Nourge, uh his co-founder or colleague Rick Rule hasn't been involved in the business for years. Now, it's run by a gentleman named Whitney George, who's actually a value investor who came up under Chuck Royce, and then um this is kind of the new very high-growth phase of his career. But, Sprott today is about a $65 billion asset manager focusing on precious metals, but any number of real-world assets.
1:02:40 About 50 billion of that is physical trust. So, physical gold, physical silver, physical copper, physical uranium. And these are incredibly high-margin businesses because you you're not paying I mean, you're paying a sales staff, you're paying administrators, but you're not paying portfolio managers, and you're not kind of churning through kind of all of that.
1:03:03 And so, the AUM at the firm has grown about three a little over three times since 2021, about a 30% compound annual growth rate. But, the margin has expanded from this is adjusted EBITDA, from about 53% to 72%. So, as you can see, if you do agree with a thesis of there being long secular market here, I think just from the existing corpus of the business, which you're paying about 13 to 15 times forward EBITDA on, uh you're going to do fine, if not great.
1:03:40 And again, revert back to the business model quality matters. Um this high of a margin, no leverage, and the kind of the flywheel around every incremental dollar that investor flows, essentially flows down to adjusted EBITDA, that allows you to express a view much longer term. But then they kind of tack on these call options.
1:04:00 Like they have one of the largest uranium trusts. Um they're actually exploring some more value-added businesses as well. So, um we think between just continuing their market share dominance, um expanding new interest in new products, and developing upon the success of the uranium trust, and then having such an efficient flywheel at a 70% plus margin, it's a really eloquent way to express this view longer term.
1:04:26 >> Do you think, with the volatility we've seen in commodity prices and the pullback you mentioned their assets under management, is there a risk that they see outflows, and is that going to hurt the stock? Or do you think that's already priced in because it's pulled back? >> Yeah, it's a good point.
1:04:45 So, they definitely have had organic AUM declines related to the price of the underlying metals from the peak. But Sprott, these physical trusts tend to be much stickier long-term investors, as opposed to the ETF crowd that just wants really quick, easy, efficient exposure. And so, the people that are willing to go out there, and whether it's institutional or individual, and emphasize physical exposure, tend to be expressing a much longer secular view.
1:05:16 So, there's always attrition risk, um, but I think that they're a little bit more insulated than these kind of fly-by-night ETF operators that just try to launch a product for whatever's hot. There's a very dedicated base and you know, harkening back to your comment on MYX, at a 3 billion or so market cap, it wouldn't be crazy for a larger diversified manager to kind of say, you know, I can probably create a lot more value here and consolidating this business as well.
1:05:45 >> I mean, and I remember they were sending I was in the newsroom, they're sending releases, we're doing this uranium physical trust. And it's like, who cares, you know? Like, it was literally during a time where it was like, who cares about this? Uranium's dead, nuclear's dead. And but they were like quietly building this business for for exactly this moment.
1:06:04 So, they're kind of reaping those benefits. Um, okay, the third pick is Land Bridge, which I guess also to back to that is tell you why journalists shouldn't pick your stocks for you. Cuz we're the contrarian indicator. Um, okay, your your third pick is Land Bridge. We were talking about water with Ares and you said you'd brought kind of a play continuing that theme is Land Bridge, it? >> It is.
1:06:26 And so, when I mentioned the oligopoly in the water space, uh, one of the well, the largest investor in the space is a company called Five Point Infrastructure. It's a Houston-based private equity firm. They control another public company called Water Bridge. And they have a private company called Deep Blue.
1:06:48 And between the two of them, it's, um, a very dominant Permian. So, one is on the Midland, one is on the Delaware side water handling business. And for an overly simplified example, think of them as a MLP, so a pipeline company that is taking this water from where it needs to be taken, treating it, moving it, disposing of it. And an interesting fact fact is that water, which I mentioned with Aris, there's four barrels of water for every barrel of oil and gas produced.
1:07:22 So, there's just a massive amount of water that needs to be transported around the Delaware, but also the Midland Basin. But, it's getting much harder to dispose of this water. So, you used to basically just inject into what's called a saltwater disposal well. Originally, they were going below the oil formation, and that was creating seismic events.
1:07:42 So, small mini earthquakes. They switched to shallow injection. And then they over-pressurized that, and it was causing old legacy well blowouts, surface disturbances, and interfering with some of the shell reserves. So, Five Point in their questions bought a ranch about a 72,000 acre ranch in Texas called the Hanging H Ranch, which is now called LandBridge.
1:08:07 So, LandBridge, to make a easy comparison, think of it as a triple-net land lease. And WaterBridge, via the private equity sponsor, funds the growth on that land position to enable them to expand their water infrastructure business through easements for the pipelines, but then also areas for injection into the saltwater disposal wells.
1:08:30 Now, I think that business in and of itself is extremely interesting. Probably going to grow about 25% a year for the next two to three years at a 90% EBITDA margin, and then they're converting about 70% of that into free cash flow. So, incredible oligopoly business with a sponsor and a midstream business funding all of your OPEX and CAPEX.
1:08:57 So, if that's not good enough, West Texas has been the beneficiary of a very large amount of influx around AI data center development. >> Yeah. And they need that water? >> Yes. So, the data centers themselves, it's a little bit less clear what the solution is going to be, but if you're familiar with the backlogs for turbines, uh these are natural gas turbines, most of which are combined cycle gas plants, and those are thermal, so they use steam, and you need water to basically cool that steam to recirculate it.
1:09:36 And that is a very big draw, and that's why you're seeing a lot of pushback in a lot of these communities because it's a huge draw around that water, and so the water that LandBridge and WaterBridge have, uh and treat and transport, is a can be a very big solution for the power gen in and of itself. But then when you then look to the data centers, the data centers have a couple of options for cooling.
1:10:03 There's dry cooling, which is traditional HVAC, but that's very electric intensive, and so if it's a race to get electrons to power your critical IT, why would you use the most electric-intensive uh power uh cooling source, especially in a desert? Or there's something called wet cooling, which is essentially circulating water through a system, um to cool basically the facilities, and there's some intermediate options, like adiabatic, which is kind of like a it's it's almost like a perspiration-based system, then liquid immersion, but
1:10:38 suffice it to say, if you do have multi-gigawatt development in West Texas, which we're increasingly very confident of, LandBridge appears to be at the forefront by using their surface position not only for land leases, power transmission, fiber optics, but then also all of those ancillary water services.
1:11:01 And so, the commonality between Sprott, MYX, Land Bridge, which is certainly true here, is you can underwrite the core business and get a very good or even great rate of return if things come to fruition. But then there's this kind of right tail distribution here where you don't need there to be data center development, but that can really make the return profile asymmetric.
1:11:23 >> Thank you for tying that in a bow for us, linking all of those businesses. Uh James, it's always a pleasure to have you on the show. Thanks so much for bringing these novel ideas to us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. And uh hopefully uh next year we can revisit these and there's a similar experience. >> Yeah, that's right.
1:11:40 And your conviction is high, especially on Land Bridge. You're a 20% owner at Horizon Kinetics is in that stock. So that speaks to um how much you believe in the thesis. We appreciate you joining us. That's James Davolos joining us at Horizon Kinetics. Don't miss our next episode. We're still talking macro with David Rosenberg.
1:11:56 If you've got questions about the macro environment, what central banks are up to, email us questions@inmoneypod.com, and we'll see you on the next episode. >> So money >> [music] >> So money