Title:   How to Buy Underperforming Stocks Without Getting Burned
Show:    In the Money with Amber Kanwar (YouTube) — interview podcast
Guest:   Paul Harris, CFA — Partner & Portfolio Manager, Harris Douglas Asset Management (Toronto)
Date:    2026-JUN-30
URL:     https://youtu.be/l7Y18w1abRA
Length:  ~58:43
Note:    Auto-caption transcript from YouTube's on-page transcript panel (timedtext API is guard-blocked);
         (mm:ss) cues are real. Lightly cleaned (a11y duration labels + chapter-marker rows + repeated
         description/sponsor blocks removed); wording/numbers/names otherwise intact. Host = Amber Kanwar
         (interviewer); pundit is the GUEST, Paul Harris. Names: MDA (MDA.TO), BCE (BCE.TO), TELUS (T.TO),
         BlackBerry (BB.TO), CAE (CAE.TO), FedEx (FDX), Campbell (CPB), Nike (NKE), Alphabet (GOOGL),
         Stryker (SYK), Canadian Natural Resources (CNQ), Meta (META), Microsoft (MSFT), EssilorLuxottica
         (EL.PA), SpaceX (private), Hamilton Enhanced Mixed Asset Allocation ETF (MIX).

(00:03) So, you didn't buy SpaceX on the IPO? I wouldn't touch that thing with a 10-ft pole. His AI business is nowhere. Nothing close to entropic. BYD is a way better car. He's nowhere in robo taxes. Paul Harris is staying away from momentum, but that doesn't mean he's buying the dogs. This episode is all about knowing how to tell a beaten down stock from a broken one. Is Blackberry the Canadian comeback kid? 
(00:23) No. On Campbell, it's sitting at around a 30-year low. The numbers over the last uh little while have been horrific. I would never spend that much on a pair of running shoes. You wouldn't know that by his jaunty neck scarf. Somehow I'm down on Google. That's impossible. But that's because I was an idiot and I sold. 
(00:40) Didn't you guys do a show and you said you don't sell anything? That's the best part of the show. Oh, thank you. When you choose a Raymond James adviser, you're getting more than independent financial management. You're getting access to complete financial guidance 
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(01:49) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of any organization or company. The host and guest may maintain positions in any securities discussed on the podcast. Always consult with a qualified financial adviser or professional before making any investment decisions. In this episode, we discuss Nike, Alphabet, Meta, Microsoft, and Canadian Natural Resources, which are all stocks that I 
(02:09) own. Hey everyone, welcome to a brand new episode of In the Money with Amber Canar. We had a really fun episode with Paul Harris of Harris Douglas. Inadvertently, it turned about understanding how to buy underperforming stocks. Now, it's very tempting just to look at 
(02:24) valuation, say, "This is a cheap stock, and it's a good brand. Maybe I should buy it." Uh Paul says the right way is a little bit more nuanced than that. Um it was a great education for me and we ended up talking about a lot of interesting ideas in the markets right 
(02:39) now. So I can't wait for you to hear that episode. As a reminder, we've got our big Calgary Stampede show next week where I'll be sitting down in front of a live audience at the Stampede with Enbridge CEO Greg Ebel. We're fully sold out, but you are going to get a chance 
(02:55) to hear that interview. Don't miss any updates from us. If you want to know what we're up to this summer, go to inthemoneypod.com. 
(03:18) Paul Harris, thank you so much for returning to the podcast. My pleasure. Uh, the last time we had you was March last year and it feels like 10 lifetimes have passed since then. We were worried about like Liberation Day. Um, and now we're in kind of a I don't know. I wouldn't call 
(03:36) markets boring, but it's been a while since we've had like an insane shock. Yeah. So, I mean, I think the problem with these kind of markets are almost worse, right? Because they're not uh they're not consistent. And so from my perspective, you have to expect a lot more volatility uh not only just uh market volatility but even uh you know 
(03:57) just general stock volatility. So so many stocks have gone up a lot and I think sometimes when people go oh you know semiconductors fell 9%. Well they were up 100%. So falling 9% is not a big deal right? So I think these are kind of healthy things in an ongoing market. So I would say there's a lot of positives 
(04:14) right there. you've seen good earnings numbers come out which has been very positive for the market. Uh I think you've seen sort of this kind of you know back and forth but the reality is that you're there's a some kind of conclusion at least we feel to the Iran war. Uh so I think there's a lot of 
(04:31) positives about it. You know oil prices have come down which should stabilize inflation more. Uh so you should probably see yields come down. Um so I think that there's a lot of positives. Uh, and I think you have somebody at the Fed that is actually changing the way they think about the Fed, which I think was is very important. I think the Fed 
(04:48) was uh was getting off track and getting into the wrong lanes. So I think that those are all positive things, but I think with a market that is trading at these heavy multiples and specifically certain stocks, you have to kind of be weary about when you invest and on top 
(05:05) of that uh and you know be very like look for opportunities uh when markets kind of fall or something like that. But also be be clear that it's going to be volatile. I think this this there's a lot happening under the surface. There's no kind of chaotic headline to your point, but you know, in that vein of looking 
(05:24) for opportunities, the MAG 7 is technically coming back from a correction, right, and is underperforming. Commodities haven't saved you. Oil's rolled over, gold has rolled over. Um, copper recently under some pressure. And then in June, you 
(05:41) know, I talk a lot about healthcare stocks, even though the market, our audience doesn't seem to care that much about and nobody cares about healthcare stocks. Guess what? in the US what was the best performing sector in June it was it was healthcare. Um so when you talk about those opportunities like are we in the midst of like maybe a quiet death of some of the stocks that have done really well 
(06:01) over the past year and maybe searching in earnest for those value opportunities. Yeah. So I'm not really kind of a pure value person in that respect. I mean, I think in a funny kind of way, I think what I look about when somebody says to me they're a value player, they tend to be a person that's buying something at 10 times earnings and hoping it's going to go up. And I don't do that. I mean, I 
(06:21) I just feel that that's the wrong way to look at the mark stocks. So, you know, just because something at 10 times earnings, it may be cheap, but it may be a lousy business. So, I think you have to look at what the businesses do. And whether you like it or not, some of these technology companies are very, very good businesses. They may be 
(06:37) changing or morphing into something less less like they were before but they are a very good business. They do have tremendous amount of free cash flow. They have very high gross margins, very high operating margins. So and very good you know uh net margins and and they and cash flow generation for a long time has 
(06:54) really been um you know growing quite rapidly. So they are good businesses right and so if you can manage the issue that there there may be this volatility around them becoming changing their their balance sheet etc then I think you'll you'll be you'll be in better 
(07:10) shape but I you know I'm not a cyclical I don't like cyclical companies and I mean healthcare I think is more of a defensive area and I think that's what people have kind of gone to because you know people are worried about what's happening in the stock market but I mean for example people have gotten and 
(07:26) bought bought SpaceX as it came public, right? Well, that's it's a very overvalued company. And then, of course, they do $25 billion at debt and all these debt rating agencies give them a triple B rating. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of in my life. You know, Netflix didn't get a AAA triple B rating rather until until they were cash flow positive, right? 
(07:47) Neither did Amazon for that matter, 10 years later probably. So, you know, this these kind of things bother me in the stock market. they are very kind of you know hit to use the word kind of bubbish things that are occurring and I think that there's more to happen with entropic and and and um open AI coming 
(08:05) over the next little while right so so I think that there is this kind of under this kind of bubbling of of kind of over volat over volatility but over over uh you know the market being way too expensive and I think that that you know 
(08:20) the debt market especially is a very different market than the equity market people kind of oh going to put a person on the moon or in Mars or whatever. That all sounds very terrific to somebody in the equity world. But in the debt world, they don't like that kind of stuff. They just want to know, can I get my money back, you know, when it's when it's due and I'm not sure that's going to happen when you've, you know, when you've done 
(08:40) It was supposed to be 20 and they did it at 25. So, and you know, I think like those are the kind of things that you really have to watch out in the marketplace for to tell you that you will have more volatility. And sometimes, you know, volatility is your friend, right? You have to remember that you can actually make a lot of money 
(08:56) during a volatile period of time if you know companies, you've analyzed them and you like them and you can manage through that volatility. You will make a lot more money in the long run because it becomes your friend as opposed to being the angst that you see it as. I think right. Um, so you didn't buy SpaceX on the IPO? 
(09:12) No, I wouldn't touch that thing with a 10-ft pole until when? But you have to acknowledge the space race is real. Oh, well I don't know. Is it real? I mean, they've they they've got a business that's the satellite business is worth $300 billion perhaps. The rocket business is well, uh, his AI 
(09:27) business is nowhere. Nothing close to entropic or or open AI. So, it's it's crappy business. That's why he's trying to buy everything else. He's got a rocket business. The only way he gets to Mars is that that main rocket has to go to orbit. It hasn't done that yet. And Twitter is like a, you know, a cesspool 
(09:44) of, you know, white supremacists and Nazis and misinformation. I don't know what you why would you like I mean I'm still tweeting about finance stuff hoping against hope that somebody I think people like you have to use that thing and I think that's fine right but I'm not sure I do I've definitely the tone there is a vibe shift on Twitter for sure. 
(10:02) Yeah. So I don't really know that you know and and Tesla for example is not done as well as people think. I mean BYD is a way better car at a cheaper price point at a better battery level like better quality battery. like he spent all this time wasting our money on that stupid whatever that thing's called that 
(10:18) that truck that he made as opposed to making a 30,000 or $35,000 car, right? You know, and Doge, I mean, he went on about making two trillion dollars and he maybe saved the government, destroyed the US government's kind of soft touch in the world and maybe saved 300 million. I don't know. Is it is he that great? He's a great promoter of his of his life and his stock and his children 
(10:39) perhaps, but I'm not sure that he's that, you know, I don't think that like and and that's the reason he wants to emerge Tesla into SpaceX. It really takes away people looking at it in a more refined way, I think. Right. I mean, I hear you. He's a very polarizing person and he's very good at creating a gap between what the business is currently doing and what people are 
(10:58) willing to pay for it. But he did change. I mean the fact that that BYD that all these you know um vehicles are even looking at electric that is that's even happening that's absolutely the fact that there is a space race. Oh yes don't get me wrong he's he's brilliant in that way but he lick and lick everything maybe that he's that brilliant that he just sort of oh you know I just want to live on my farm and 
(11:21) have more children. I don't know. But that's kind of like that's he loses he loses the reality of what he's is living in, right? And so he's this spends less time on the things that are important, right? You know, he didn't have to go do doge. He should have just ran Tesla and done this space thing. I'm not disagreeing that he's not going to be able to do these things, but the 
(11:37) timeline that he's given are not is not going to happen. Like everything like you know he's nowhere in robo taxi. Whimo is way better. I don't know if you've been if you go to any major city in the United States, there's a Whimo there driving people around and they're fantastic, right? he's in Austin and I 
(11:52) don't know if he's even, you know, and like so I think like there's a lot of things he talks about but they're not achievable in a timeline that he says and that's but that's that's what you do just to promote stocks, right? You kind of make up all these things. I mean we used to have all these people in Canada that some of the stuff does get done but on a delayed timeline and a little less. 
(12:10) Yeah. So you know I mean we people in Canada used to you know promote crappy little oil and gas and mining companies. He's very good at promoting trillion dollar companies. That's all. That's the big difference. That's a special talent in itself. Very talented. You know what? I think this segus very nicely into the mailbag. So, let's get into some of these ideas because the first question it is actually about the space race. 
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(14:33) Okay, the first question is actually about MDA space. Rather than buying SpaceX, I'm considering getting into the space race with MDA. What does Paul think? Now MDA got a huge pop, right? Uh thanks to SpaceX as did all space related stocks and then um you know as SpaceX became public some of these struggled. 
(14:54) Yeah. So I mean when you look at their numbers I think they beat their numbers. They've given they've increased their guidance over the next year or so. 15 minutesThey've got a great backlog backlog about 1 point4.3 billion dollars. Uh you know they've got a great balance sheet. I I mean it's not something it's not a sector that I'm involved in but I think it's if you want to be in that sector I think he's absolutely right. It's better to own SpaceX. I mean better to own MD 
(15:16) than to own something like SpaceX. I think there's a lot of opportunity there. You know the the So clearly the best part of SpaceX is the satellite business that these guys are in the satellite low. So these are guys in the satellite business. It's the best business to be in clearly. So, so I think that's what you want to own it for and I think there's a lot of opportunity 
(15:33) also as we move like the the world is changing from a defense perspective as well, right? So defense is no longer about having the biggest rockets and all these other things. It's really about having other vehicles. So technology is changing in defense and these guys are 
(15:48) more and more involved in defense. I think that will help them as well. So it is an added benefit. Um, how do you think because you mentioned it's a satellite business and this week there were a couple of deals or potential deals around maybe SpaceX uh pairing up with what is a traditional kind of 
(16:05) telecom company to enable mobile phones um and and this you know you own telecoms and I think that's one of our next questions actually is on BCE um not about Space but do you think about the Telos with their infrastructure and 
(16:21) their tower hours ultimately being disrupted by this new this newish satellite communication technology. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think there to certain degree if you look at people in Ukraine, they've had a great advantage because of because of 
(16:37) Starlink, right? So, I think in certain areas it will it will take away and I think I I can't remember exactly but I think he did the deal with Echoar to buy their spectrum, right? So he really is moving to be much more of a sterling to be much more of a telecom type company. 
(16:54) Does that mean you don't own Canadian Telos or US Telos because they can be disrupted? Well, I don't know if you I don't know if it can be disrupted as much as like in the with respect to like if like if you're in a like if you're in a place like Jamaica or something like that, you probably want to own Starlink, right? 
(17:10) You don't because it's not reliable the telecom that's in the ground or whatever. In Canada, it's much more reliable obviously, but I would say that certain parts of rural rural Canada would probably be benefit better from Starlink than they would from the Bell and all these other places, right? So, I 
(17:25) think there's there can both work together. I think they're also these guys have a very strong client base here. So, it's very hard to disrupt sort of getting rid of your internet and all these other things, right? You'd have to really and it's a comp it's a price competitive thing as well, right? So, I don't think so. But I mean the argument 
(17:42) to my my argument about all these companies is that do we need like you know the CRTC going on about seven people that do mobile phones in this country or whatever. I don't know what the number is now but you know that's ridiculous. We're a small country. We don't need that many people. In fact the US has a similar number of telos that we 
(17:58) do right. So I think that you know you should regulate them better from a customer point of view. Maybe that's the way to do it. But I think that the idea of, you know, these guys having more and more cellular businesses around, they just seem to fail and get bought by BCE or whatever, right? You know, 
(18:13) and well, our next question is about BCE. Is it time to get back in? Do you think a real turnaround is really in the cards? This question coming from Martin and Susain Marie. Um, it's interesting. The stock is kind it's like forming a base if you're technical, you know, it's kind of just humming along. It's not imploding anymore. 
(18:32) Yeah. Um, yeah. So, I think that their big issue is they've got, you know, like a lot of these teleco companies, they have a lot of debt. They cut their dividend in half basically and they're paying down debt. They think that they'll be able to get to a reasonable uh u debt to equity ratio over the next little while. I think that's that'll be fine. I think 
(18:49) that they um you know, I think that's kind of the idea behind the stock. It's going to be much more reliable. The dividend is is where it is. It's not maybe not going to go up, but it's not going to go down anymore. So, I think that's what people used to buy the stock for. So, they have more confidence in that. It's a five and a half% yield now, which is not terrible. 
(19:06) Yeah, it's it's Yeah, better than it was when it was 10%. I mean, so we don't own BC, but we do own Telus. And I think Telus is slightly more interesting simply because they're getting a new CEO coming in, I think, in on July the 1st. I think he they he may even cut the dividend and do all those sort of things because, you know, but I think that that would be it's a little bit more of an interesting story from that perspective. 
(19:26) But I I you know, I think these Telos there there's a place for them in your portfolio. uh but you don't you know they're not going to have excessive amount of growth and stuff like that and there is some I think there is some u I think the the fruition that we we thought we would see in a thing like three 5G and stuff like that it's not 
(19:43) really happen to the extent that people have talked about so I think there's still opportunities there uh um with that um you know BC is talking a lot about AI they're doing all these like AI deals would you look at a BCE as no no 
(19:58) no would they like you to look at as an AI course everybody why everybody you know this that's the second word that comes out of every CEO's mouth you know so it's not um so I I I think it's important like I think it's important that they use AI in an effective way to drive their business to and I hate to 
(20:15) say this but to reduce headcount and all these other things because a lot of the stuff they do is probably constantly done the same way so AI works effectively in that but and I think most companies need to use it in a in a fruitful way to help their businesses grow and I think BC is a perfect place 
(20:32) to company to do that but I'm not you know I I don't know if it's going to drive revenue to the it may drive cost down I'm not sure it's going to drive revenue down up rather as much as they maybe think let's talk about this Telus call the fact that you like it Victor do coming 
(20:47) in potentially with a former CIBC CEO like in days um potentially cutting the dividend finding cost savings working whatever magic he did at CIBC and doing it to tell us why isn't the market front 
(21:03) running that why am I looking at the stock trading at the lowest level since 2013 it continues to drop even though everyone knows he's coming in well I mean I I guess like with everything he's not he's probably uh needs so one of the things is he was on he was on the board before so he knows 
(21:19) the company you know quite well I would assume being on the board um well I mean I think the issue is that I like when you take over a company that big and you have to make bunch of decisions. I don't think he's going to do it on the first day that he's there. So, I think it's going to take some time and people are just sort 
(21:34) of not sure what those decisions will be, whether he'll cut the dividend or any of those things. I'm just presuming that he's going to do that and, you know, because the yield is almost 11%. Yeah. So, I mean, it's like for me, it would be the perfect thing to do. The stock's already in, you know, at the lowest level. Just cut the dividend. Maybe it'll fall a couple of percent. 
(21:51) It's not falling 10% and it'll bounce back like BCE did when they cut their dividend, right? But then it kind of went nowhere, right? you can cut the dividend, but then a bunch of funds will kick you out because you've broken a covenant, right? So, so that's fine, but you know, then there'll be other people that will buy the stock, right? So, it's not So, but I think that what you need to do is he needs to come out with a structural 
(22:12) plan about how he's going to execute and make the company better and all those things and that may take a bit of time. So, I think people think it's kind of dead money for for the next little while until he comes out with a plan that says this is what we're going to be doing. Would you add here? Would you? Yeah, I think you could add here to the stock. I think you'd be fine adding to the stock. I think it'll do well over the next, you know, couple of years. 
(22:31) Does the group have to do well? Like there's so many headwinds for the group. You mentioned like we don't need more telecoms. Yeah. They're busy cutting prices, right? They're in the middle of a price war. Immigration is down. This 
(22:49) This is my whole point. You're not going to get a lot of topline growth out of these companies, but you will get bottom line growth because they are can be restructured in a more fruitful way and cut down their debt levels and things like that and and maybe you know use AI to their benefit in inside their 
(23:05) company. Not maybe I mean they will have to use AI outside but you know I think if you call some of these places for ask them any questions it's a computer talking to you anyway. So yes. Okay. So, our next question is about the best performing stock on the TSX in 2026. Do you know what it is? 
(23:23) Um, I don't. It's Blackberry. Oh, Blackberry by a long shot. 200%, right? Um, you know, of course, look at the long-term chart and that tells a different story, but you know, I know BlackBerry obviously I'm like sort of obsessed with the company cuz that's when I started in this business was during, you know, the beginning of the Blackberry downfall. Um, there's been a lot of fits 
(23:46) and starts of a BlackBerry rally. It fizzled out with John Chen. It was a meme stock in 2020. Um, the question is, is Blackberry the Canadian comeback kid? Would Paul buy it here? This coming from Lee this time, does it feel like the rally is a bit more sustainable because 
(24:04) it's about parts of the business that they actually have? No. Uh I so I think the issue for BlackBerry is I think it's highly speculative one because I think when you look at it the two things that they're really involved in is cyber security and the internet of 
(24:19) things right so I think when you look at their kind of numbers and I mean coming off a low base like that looks like it's done incredibly well but it's really not stock that's done well for a long time. Um I think that there's um a lot of competition in those areas and so um so that's one thing I I so I think that 
(24:37) it's you're not going to get you you know it's still a turnaround story and I think that with that respect you it'll you have to expect a lot of volatility in it and I think it's far more speculative than it was uh you know obviously years ago. Now, you've seen these Canadian turnaround stories before, right? From like the brink. 
(24:56) Think of Bombardier, right? And Bombardier was left for dead for so long and then no respectable money manager would touch it. Um, and now it's it's it's back. It's sort of a respectable company again. It's back to a core holding for many people. Um, I think BlackBerry follows that similar script. 
(25:15) Yeah. They don't have the case and the Quebec government helping them. That's true. But now they're talking physical AI, right? And you've got Prime Minister Mark Carney like talking about Coher, you know what I mean? It seems like an easy company to say, "Oh, and look, we also have this," right? 
(25:31) Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I'm I'm not like to me that's something that I think it's I wouldn't buy something like that because I think it's far more speculative and I don't think they've shown that they're actually doing all the right things to, you know, make a comeback or to be in the same realm as 
(25:46) uh um I I think Bernardi is like not a good comparison because it is really Quebec or Quebec Inc. Quebec, right? And so, you know, so I don't but you know, they've done a good job, don't get me wrong, right? But but I think that it's really very different. You don't have 
(26:01) that kind of support with Blackberry, right? Let's talk about a Quebecing company which is CAE. Shares have been struggling. Is it worth buying here? I think this is one of the more interesting stories on Bay Street right now, right? Um it has underperformed, but it's got that defense part of its business. It's got its civil part of its business. It's got new CEO, right, 
(26:22) who's talk I've listened to the conference calls very candidly about past failures, right? Um, what do you think about maybe we should take a step back and how CE what were the missteps? Well, so I think with the issue with CE is that I think you're right that we it's probably worth looking at here and doing some really good work on it. I 
(26:41) think the civil part of it has been disappointing over the last little while and that's kind of hurt them a lot. And then on the civil side also the you know kind of the uh Middle Eastern part of it has also been hurt obviously because of what's going on out there. you know it's kind of a daily up and down sort of 
(26:57) thing which is much more difficult to run a company. The defense thing I think is this kind of interesting part of it where you have this defense business that can actually grow. So I think that you know it's not a bad idea to be looking at it here it is the the trouble with it if you extract the defense part 
(27:14) of it the civil part of it is kind of very cyclical right so you have to expect the fact that it can be you know uh a lot more cyclical than people think and I think that's very kind of hurts you in a world that um you know if you want something much more stable right so I think that the cyclicality of these 
(27:32) companies um you know you have to be able to buy these things at the right time, but also understand that that they may, you know, kind of dip down and that's the opportunity to add more to them because over the long run they're very good businesses. But I do like the fact that, you know, they have a new 
(27:47) CEO. I like the fact that they've, you know, they understood that the civil part of it is they've been very difficult business to difficult business. They've or they've not run the business properly and I think that they've got this added defense thing which helps them. So, you know, I think it it's worth buying here. Um, CE makes 
(28:04) flight simulators. So for people, you know, civil and, you know, these plane companies, these airlines have had to deal with like oil price shocks as well. So maybe they're not buying as much software. I think the defense side has been you'd think would do better. Yeah. So I think the defense side there's a real, like I said earlier on, like there's a real push around the world on the defense side and Canada's 
(28:25) made a big effort to kind of increase defense, right? It's an important part of them. you know, the rest of the world used to be relying on the United States and that used to be uh but I think they're less and less they're worried about that in a big way and I think this they need to we need to increase defense spending and we are doing that and so 
(28:42) companies like like MDA and and and and CA will benefit from that in this country. Matt Bramberg the CEO from Northrup Gumman so obviously the you know defense background and Ken Roescu is is the chair and those are two recent changes. All right. So you you'd look at adding here. 
(29:00) 29 minutesUm let's talk about some American stocks. Uh we've got a question about uh FedEx, which is actually interesting. Was in the news last week, I believe it reported results. What do you think about FedEx? The shares dropped after earnings because of trade concerns, but the stock has had a great year. This 
(29:16) coming from Gil. FedEx recently split off, spun off its um less than truckload business. So now it's two separate companies. uh and and they're in the midst of a turnaround that seems to be going well. Yeah. So I I mean you know like delivery services are um uh cyclical in a way but 
(29:37) I think FedEx is been a is over the last little while is is been has been able to kind of change their business a little bit to the spin-off helps. Uh I think the issue with I would say is that you know so people always compare when they look 
(29:52) at these logistical companies FedEx UPS they throw Amazon in there but Amazon's really not it's a logistical company it's a logistics company but it's a logistics company for themselves right they're not expanding into FedEx's is business in a way that people would think yet so 
(30:08) yet uh but I think a lot of these companies used to rely on on Amazon for many years and that was a big chunk of their business and so they had this is why they went through this very difficult period of readjusting UPS similarly you know and as Amazon became 
(30:23) very much larger uh in the logistics business it put a ton of pressure on them from a pricing point of view and in that case they in a bad way accepted that faith right as opposed to saying you know what we don't need you like sort of thing so I think once they kind 
(30:39) of decided that that's no not what they're going to do then they be they understood their business more and how to grow it and I think that's what's happening. Um, you know, it's a great international company. Um, you know, the guy who I think started it, um, he he this was a paper, he wrote a paper on how to start this company in his his 
(30:56) Harvard MBA class and that's how he started the company. So, it's, you know, it's got interesting. Yeah, it's got interesting roots and I think that it's it's gotten to be a better run company over the last little while caring about return on invested capital, caring about, you know, better rates of return 
(31:12) and looking at things that don't make a lot of sense to them to exit from. And I think a lot of these guys in many ways got involved in all kinds of things which they felt was logistical, but it really wasn't. But they just, oh, it's a natural thing to be in and all stuff. 
(31:27) So, I think that they've kind of narrowed their focus, but actually are getting better rates of return and I that's I think that's what's important about the company. Do you like the spin-off? Have you looked at it? I haven't looked at the rate. Okay. It's interesting that FedEx has done so much better than UPS. Is it because they've got this this uh what do they call it like this FedEx one strategy where they're combining their ground and their express? 
(31:49) I don't know. But I mean, I think UPS is also similarly had a bunch of problems, you know, with and they were a big supplier to Amazon, right? So, I think they're also they're where FedEx was a few years ago and sort of kind of restructuring their businesses. 
(32:04) Sounds like you don't love these businesses right now. I don't own them. So, but but I do appreciate the fact that they're changing the way they think about their business. Um, another question we have is on Campbell. It's sitting at around a 30-year low. Is this the type of stock that's interesting to Paul and would he buy it here? This one coming from Frank. 
(32:20) I think we can get your value versus value trap lesson here. Oh, I wouldn't buy Campbell. I mean, I think like look at the numbers, right? They've just been there the numbers over the last uh little while have been horrific, right? And their snack business has been terrible. Um, you know, and I think people are not um, you know, yeah, you can have their chicken noodle soup when you've got a bad cold, but that's outside of that with the salt 
(32:42) levels on it. Who why would you even drink that eat that stuff? So, so I think that it's it's not a good company to buy. I think you're in a very kind of value trap with those businesses. I think they're they're just very difficult businesses like all snack cuz it's Kagra Craft Hinder terrible. Yeah. They're all very bad businesses. 
(32:58) And I also like years ago, I think the problem was years ago, um, I'm older than you, so I remember this, but years ago, if you went to a supermarket, uh, you know, even law blogs back then, if you were one of these kind of, you know, craft or whatever, you got tons of shelf space, right? Today if you look at the world there's so many brands that are can start up that are healthier and all 
(33:20) these other things that places like Loblaws give you shelf space which they would say would never have given to you because craft had so much power or or Campbell had so much power but that's dissipated over the last you know last 10 years or so and so have to think about brands very differently and so you're not you don't have that competitive edge it used to have before and I think they were too slow to change 
(33:43) their products and I think people don't want to kind of use these products anymore, you know. Uh so I think that that's the difficult part about them. So I would I think these I don't like these businesses, right? I mean you can it's surprisingly a lot of debt. Yeah. It's a very debt laden company. 
(33:58) Yeah. Yeah. So I mean I think part of these problems was that they started to expand into other things that they and and took on a lot of debt over the years. Right. So u and so I don't I don't like them. I think they're they're very difficult businesses. Uh, and I don't think that their um their products 
(34:14) are good. Um, you know, and so I think that they are suffering from a a world that's changing how they think about eating and all these other things. Okay, so that's a no. Sorry, Frank. Uh, I I want to end the mailbag with the company that's going to be reporting uh 
(34:29) this week and it's Nike, another lemon, which I own. So careful what you say, Paul. Um, but should I buy it? I don't know. Should I answer and just say no? Don't bother. You own it, so you probably have a better So, you know, as that's when I learned a lesson about a value trap, right? So, well, as a as a as a brand, 
(34:50) obviously, it's got an incredible brand still, right? So, I mean, whether the World Cup's on, everybody's wearing Nike shoes and stuff like that. I know, but it's not saving the stock and who knows if it'll save sales. We'll find out. Yeah. So, and so I don't, you know, I I think that like like Lululemon and some of these places, they've just had a very hard time uh from a competitive level 
(35:08) because other brands have come in and sort of taken over their space or are more u I don't know, you know, funky or whatever. I don't know what it is, right? So, so I think that so I think that that is the the one issue. Uh I I'm not sure why they you know, they've got 
(35:24) a great brand. I'm just they've just had all these missteps along the way. And so, you know, I mean, I would never spend that much on a pair of running shoes. I still buy those canvas Converse. So, but but but they're cool now, right? So, if you're not if you're not watching, if you're listening, you wouldn't know that by his jy neck scarf. 
(35:41) Well, you know, this is my podcast view. I didn't want to wear my BN view for your show. I thought that would be No, I like the podcast look. So, but but I think that So, I think I'm not sure why Nike is having all this trouble, right? So, they've got a great brand, a brand that's global in nature. 
(35:56) you know, they've they've been able to manage their cost structure over a period of time. I just seems to me that there's something along the way that's been gone wrong for them and I I'm not sure what it is to how to explain it. Like it just seems like to me that every every time they do something, it's it's not the right thing. Right. 
(36:14) It's so funny actually looking at the theme of a bunch of these mailbag stocks um turnaround. Right. Right. There's a temptation here to say, "Okay, this is lagg. the market's done so wonderfully, but but let's look at problems and and turnaround potentials. 
(36:30) And Nike is a great example where an activist, a new CEO h it hasn't worked so far, right? Um how do you think about turnarounds? Do you have certain guidelines that you like to follow? Um so, you know, by nature, I don't I don't look buy these kind of companies, but but I would say that you what you need to do is when you look at a 
(36:49) turnaround, um you have to be careful about turnarounds, right? Sometimes people stripped them down to nothing just to get a a stock market price return, right? As opposed to looking at the company as a whole and saying, you know, what are the problems with this business and how do we solve them? And 
(37:05) sometimes that's not done when you have uh somebody come in who's not a long-term investor and they say, well, I'm just going to strip all this stuff out and just, you know, get the price up so I can get out. So, but I would say that you when you look at a turnaround, um, you know, you have to have somebody that comes in that systematically, you 
(37:23) know, understands the business, but systematically brings sets in place a bunch of things that they want to achieve, whether it's their balance sheet being better, right? Or their products being better or their stores being nicer or all those things and sort of systematically kind of execute on 
(37:39) those things well. And I think the problem with with Nike, for example, I think they've they've done one of those things properly, but they've done the other thing poorly, right? So So they've not they've not executed on certain things in a in a proper fashion. So So I think that's what you want to see when you buy a turnon. You want somebody 
(37:54) that's capable that loves the business, understands the business, but and wants to make it better, right? But but not stripping it apart, right? And I think that's the bad part. If you get a turnaround that people want to just strip strip a great company or a great brand and sort of in the long run destroys it. 
(38:11) Yeah. And they have to work on the opposite reviving it. Okay. Let's find out where your conviction does lie. We've talked about a lot that you don't want to own. Let's talk about what you do want to own. 
(38:27) Proix is brought to you by ATB Financial. With over 100 billion in assets, ATB Financial is powering possibilities for more than 843,000 financial services clients. ATB Coremar Capital Markets is a leading North American investment firm providing holistic corporate and capital markets 
(38:44) advice and fullervice financial solutions. Visit atb.com/inthemoney for more information. Okay. Uh, so you were last on March 4th, 2025. And at that time, you picked Google, Striker, and CNQ, right? 
(39:02) Um, let's talk about Google. It's doubled since then. That's the best one. Up 104% since you chose it. Somehow I'm down on Google. That's That's impossible, but it seems impossible, but that's because I was an idiot and I sold during the peak Gemini fear and that was the exact 
(39:20) right time to buy it. But you guys did, didn't you guys do a show and you said you don't sell anything? That's the That's part of the show. You did that your Christmas show. You said don't sell anything. I know. And then I saw but we lamented about how I had to learn I have to learn a lot of these lessons the hard way. Okay. And that's what I recommend our investors do is make small mistakes early. Right. 
(39:39) So, and now I'm not going to sell, which is why I just hold on to Nike cuz I know my time horizon is like 25 40 years if I'm lucky. So, do you still own Alphabet? We do. Uh I think that so look into my eyes and say never sell. 
(39:54) Well I think what happened so I I so so you know Google was not a turnaround story but when I came on the show it was trading at 18 times earnings and everybody said they were going to be nowhere in AI and their search business was going to disappear and they weren't 
(40:09) going to do anything in cloud and all these kind of things right so there was such a very negative tone to it. Not that I I s you know I liked it because it was trading below the market multiple. I think they they've got some great businesses, right? The AI business continues to do well. Search has not gone away like people said YouTube 
(40:26) continues to do well. Uh you know the cloud business is growing at leaps and bounds. Um you know and then Whimo is is is fantastic. So so you take all those things together and I think it's it's a great business with great margins and uh great free cash flow. 
(40:43) They're spending all that free cash flow on right. So that is the big risk that all these companies have, right? That they're spending their free cash flow. They just did a a big equity issue which is unheard of. They haven't done an equity issue in over 15 20 years, I think. So So that's that's that's so 
(40:59) that's the issue I think that everyone is concerned about and don't does not know how to answer, right? Uh will they just stop doing this? Can they stop doing it? You know, uh how will they if they do stop doing it, does somebody get get a big advantage over them? I and I don't know how to answer that question 
(41:14) to be honest with you. I wish I could. I don't think they're going to stop doing this because they see AI as a very important vehicle for much other things, not only in their own business, but in their own businesses, but broadly in the world, right? And so they want to be one 
(41:32) of the leaders in that area. And I think that's the that's the issue they face. And you're willing to hold on. Yeah, I think it's going to be a little bit more volatile than people think, but I think those those businesses, even those individual businesses are are worth a lot of money. Yeah. Right. 
(41:47) And we are going to talk just like you said, Google was undervalued back then. You brought us some new ideas that you think are kind of Googleesque. So stay tuned for that. First, you got to take your licking on Striker, right? It's down. 42 minutesIt's down a lot. Well, you know what? 
(42:02) It's not that bad. It's down 14% from when you picked it. Um depending on the point though when people got in it's down a lot more. Medtech um a lot of high-profile misses and Striker is one of them. Yeah. Talk to me about why Striker has stumbled and what you think about it now. So I I I mean so I like Striker still. 
(42:22) We still own it. Um I think medtech is important because there's this kind of relationship in healthcare where people you the longer you keep people in hospital the more expensive it becomes. Right. These products really help one take people one decrease the pain level for most people whether it's knee 
(42:39) replacement, hip replacements, uh spine, but also uh allows them to be out of hospitals quicker and have a a much better life. Uh I think with Striker um you know one of the problems was that during CO they weren't doing any of those 
(42:56) surgeries so the stock did poorly came out of CO did start to do well. Now all those kind of backlogs are gone and you're at a more so so I think what's happened is many analysts and stuff that overestimated numbers and all those things going into this going into this period of time and so I think that's 
(43:11) there's this readjustment phase. I still the thesis to me is still very good. I think they also had a cyber attack. Yeah. So but I mean you know I mean I think everybody has a cyber attack. You probably are having one right now you don't even know about. So but it's less of an issue cuz I'm like having my like heart machine hacked into or whatever it is. 
(43:27) Right. So I shouldn't be flipping about it, but fair enough. U but I think that what the the thesis about these companies are is still very strong. Uh you know these kind of so the other thing I have you the population is getting older more and more people need all these things. The second thing I 
(43:43) think that's really important is that if you're a doctor and you work with uh striker you don't switch to another thing. You know you tend to stay with the same one. They're faxing things. Of course they're not going to switch to any new technology. Yeah, they're but they're complicated things. So most people most sales people I don't think they realize 
(44:01) this. A lot of times the sales people are in the operating room when these guys are doing the work, right? Or sitting just outside because they want to show them how to do these things because they're they're slightly complicated. So So I think that I like the thesis still. I think that it's still there. I think Striker is run by a Canadian, right? You know that, Kevin? Global. Yeah. 
(44:18) Yeah. Uh well, there you go. Do it for do it for the country pride. That's right. Um, okay. And healthcare is turning, so maybe you're catching it at the right time. CNQ, Canadian Natural Resources, you've done well, up 55% since then. It's rolled over because oil prices are down. What do you do? 
(44:36) So, uh, I I sold some of it when it ran up a lot. Like I had I I had about a 2 and a half% position. It went to almost six. I sold a percent of it uh when it ran up like that. Um, I think that um I wouldn't buy it here. uh not because I 
(44:51) don't think it's a good company, but I think that the oil market has to settle and I think oil will probably go back to the levels it was before. I know people say, "Oh, blah blah blah," but it will. 45 minutesAnd so I think then then you may want to buy more of it there, right? What I think is very important about CNQ, this is a I always I always kind of find it 
(45:08) funny that people talk about, oh, I bought Exxon or something. We have great oil businesses in this country. You know, they're fantastic businesses. They're run by fantastic people. But but I I think what's really great about CNQ is two things. One is they are uh very 
(45:23) smart at making acquisitions. You know, when oil collaps, they go and buy businesses and they do it and they get it cheaply. So they're really great at it and integrating those businesses. And the other thing I think about CNQ that's that people don't give it enough appreciation for is the fact that when they do a project, they're always on 
(45:38) time. Always like they have never like they always come in on their numbers. They beat them all the time. So, it's a it's a it's an incredibly well-run business in this country. Uh, so I I think you would you I think that oil will come back to lower levels. You know, I don't know when, but I think then you would buy more of it because I think that's it's not oil will fall back. There's too much oil in the world. 
(46:01) Okay. So, good review of your past ideas. You've bought three new ideas for us and I'm so excited about them cuz I've been waiting for somebody to tell me about Meta, right? trading at 17 times almost a 52- week low. The setup is we're afraid. 
(46:19) Yeah, it's a drag though doing this now because I'm only I only got six months till Christmas, right? Before that I had nine months to make, you know, some things to bounce back. That's true. That's true. A bit of a drag. Sorry. But, you know, we're doing a midyear review, so you'll have a chance next year. Um, yes, Jillian and I are going to do a midyear review in uh July. 
(46:38) So, this won't count for that either, but next July. you might look like a star. Thank god. Um, why do we like Meta right now? So, I so I I like Meta for a bunch of reasons. One, it's trading at a substantially below the market multiple. If you look at their numbers, they beat numbers. They are actually growing at much higher growth rates. Uh, I think you if if if you're seeing any well, I 
(47:00) 47 minutesthink you see it in in Amazon as well, but if you're if you see thinking about AI and is it working, it really works in meta, but you can see it all the time with their numbers, right? It's working. they're using it a lot effect effectively and so it's working. So I think that's one thing and so I think there's a real benefit to AI for them. I 
(47:17) I think the big the the risk always with meta is that you know Mark Zuckerberg gets on to I don't know how he gets these ideas maybe from his kids or something like oh the metaverse dad um you know but I don't like it's like he goes and does all these kind of crazy things. I think that what that's what's that's what's that's what's that's one 
(47:32) big risk to them because they're excessive amount of spending on AI but they don't have a cloud business like like you know Google does right so they can defer by renting out space right they don't have that all this money they spend is money that's for them even on chips they're doing they're 
(47:49) trying to make a custom meta chip or they are but it's just for them yeah so so I think that's a big problem that's the one risk I think I think that um I think that from a from a valuation perspective, Meta is is not expensive. I think that they've got great core brands 
(48:07) which they continue to be able to grow and I think that you can see the fact that AI is working within those brands to generate more and more revenue for them on the advertising side. So I I I like it because of all those things, but I and I and I think like you know you're getting a relatively cheap stock. You 
(48:25) know, there's risks and everything. I I think that I feel that the the cheapness outweighs the risk that you're you're of these issues. I do think and I I like the fact that you're seeing it work like you're just absolutely seeing it work, right? And so I think that makes me feel 
(48:40) a lot more comfortable with the spend in some ways. Microsoft is it the same? Um no, I I think Microsoft in terms of characteristics, well from a multiple point of view, it's trading. It's fallen a lot over the last little while. I think it made a new low yes a couple of days ago. new 52- week low. Um, I think that everybody thinks that Microsoft is people are going to rip like all all these software 
(49:01) companies, people are just going to rip out, you know, were office and all these other things. It's an absurd point of view, right? So, I mean, if you take the example if you're a maker of a widget, like if you have AI, are you going to kind of go, "Oh, well, you know, I've got this choice to make my widget better 
(49:17) and use logistics to make it, sell it better, and all this stuff. I'm just I'm not going to spend any of my time on that. I'm just going to go rip out Microsoft Word and and all these other things and just go use, you know, this guy named John Smith has built a new system. It's absurd, right? So, but that's not the way the world works. Like 
(49:32) for example, even docuign, I don't think people understand this. If you sign a document, right, those guys have done all the work around the world to make sure that you can when you sign a document, if Amber Canar signs a document in in when she's, you know, when you're in Alberta, that you met the 
(49:48) laws of Alberta or the province of Alberta. And if you're a lawyer and you get, you know, somebody to sign something, well, you better make sure that they're able to sign it digitally in that c in that province, that country, that state or whatever, or else it's totally null and void, right? So, there are a lot of things that you can't 
(50:05) replace that easily, right? So, there's a there's a huge body of research and all that stuff that's gone into all this stuff and I just don't think that people are going to rip out all these things. I would say that co-pilot is clunky. I use it. It's clunky, right? Claude is not 
(50:20) clunky. C-Pilot is clunky. But when you talk to very large businesses around the world, they all use C-pilot because they're scared to go to some other kind of other thing, right? There's a small universe of people within that company that may use cloud or thing for some of 
(50:36) the stuff, but they're very small and they're restricted. Everybody else in that in that whole company will have to use co-pilot. So, so I think that, you know, Copilot's clunky. It'll get better over time. I think that the integration of all these things within work you know 
(50:52) uh within the office network is very important. I think it's it's it's great to be able to do certain things. Um you know so I think that that they will be one of the top players. They've got a great cloud business that continues to grow. I mean the cloud business Azure is growing incredibly fast 37% in the last 
(51:09) quarter. Right. So, so I think that they are there's this kind of weird sense that they're not going to be anywhere and that because they have a software business it's going to disappear and the issue I would say is what we have to battle with is what do you want to pay for that business right do you want to 
(51:25) pay you know 40 times earnings like you did a while ago or 35 times earnings or do you want to pay 25 times earnings or 22 times earnings which is trading at today right so so I think that's kind of the issue you have to battle with but the other thing is that you have to remember that They've got these great businesses 
(51:41) that deal with massive institutions, right? And massive institutions don't just go and rip everything out when they're all around the world, all connected. You know, your emails are connected. You're working on projects together that are all connected. U so I 
(51:56) don't think you do all that stuff lightly, right? So that's a big decision and I don't think a a chief and technology officer is going to make that lightly because the board will he'll lose his job if he gets it wrong, right? So, I saw um this meme, which I feel like is what you're coming to. It's like in this where we are right now, you have robots 
(52:15) driving cars. You can you have the most powerful computer just in your pocket. Um you can have any movie in the world like right in your home and we're still using Excel, right? Like all these changes and like yet we're still in our Excel spreadsheets, right? But Excel's ex, you know, I I mean, so the problem with Excel is or 
(52:34) Excel is very simple. You could probably put a man on the moon with XL, but you and I probably use it to equals bracket times whatever, right? So, yeah, you know, you're a neophit at Excel, so am I. I'm just saying it's how enduring it is. Yeah, absolutely. So, I think that and that and the connection between Excel and Word and and and PowerPoint and all those things are really important, right? 
(52:53) So, you like it, the software is enduring and it's cheap enough. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think, you know, you get you get a small dividend yield on it. I think that they will make uh uh AI uh an important part and they'll work on it to make it less clunky. Right. Okay. Your third one is international. It's a French name. Yes. 
(53:12) And you're going to Paris, so I don't know if this is Can you pronounce it? Esselor Luxadica, right? There we go. There you go. Um now I think of it as eyewear. Yeah, I wear eyewear is great. Look at these. Fantastic. Right. Yes. Also, in addition to the scarf, Paul has amazing eyewear. You're calling it a scarf. That's very it's a it's a you know it's a it's a um 
(53:33) we got me got confused now what I'm wearing but never mind we'll skip on that part. Let's go exotic. Oh let's go to Lex again. Okay. So there are two companies. It's a French company and a Italian company which you would never think would go together but they do. So was the lenses. 
(53:49) So if you go to an a place to get lenses they're probably made from SLR. and Exxotica was uh Ray-B bands and um all these other kind of brand names glasses. So, two things. One uh from a just from an eyewear point of view, eyewear is much more fashionable these days as 
(54:11) opposed to necessarily, oh, you know, I got to wear my grandfather's glasses to watch the screen. So, that's one thing. So, eyewear is much more fashionable. So, people like glasses, they didn't like them years ago. They like them. Secondly, they are um as you want on your screens more and more people need glasses more and more. So there and as they get older they need more glasses. 
(54:30) So there's a bit of a annuity that comes with that. Uh the third thing that's happened is that they they also do eyewear for like all these brands. If you buy a Dior or Chanel like you probably have but I don't but if you did you would they would be made from Lexonica. And 
(54:48) finally, they have Ray-B bands, which uh Mark Zuckerberg and them have a relationship about Ray-B bands and making them um you know, a wearable. So, so that's their business with them. So, they've done very well with that. Actually, the glasses have sold. Lots of Ray-B bands have been sold over the last little while and they've grown their business a fair bit. 
(55:05) Having said all this, the stock is in the dumps. Yes. There's worries about organic growth and I think there's excitement about wearables. Yeah. And you know, I I really don't think wearables are ever going to happen, right? Um unless who knows, maybe if they're on glasses like yours, maybe, right? 
(55:22) Um but but the traditional business seems to be struggling, right? So this is nothing like those two stocks before, right? So they're not going to have that. They're going to grow at GDP plus or something like that. Okay, that's the first thing. So and I and I think they're actually doing that. I think the market overemphasized like everything. Oh, you're dealing with Mark 
(55:41) Zuckerberg and he's buying a part of your business and yada yada yada and it's going to Yeah. The Meta Ray-B bands, this is who makes it. Yeah. So, so they, you know, this kind of feeling that this is going to be a tech company and it's not glasses company. 
(55:56) It's an eyeglass company that's going to grow 3 to 5% a year. They're they're they are they dominate the business on especially on lenses. Um, so you know they dominate. They came up with the idea of those lenses without the line in them. The concord I can't remember what they call them. Bif focals. 
(56:14) Well, but they used to call them bif focals before, but now they call them trying something else. But so those those kind of glasses are those that they came up with that idea where you don't see the line in the middle of it. So So that's so so you know, it's a great company. It's got great businesses. It's got great brands. They 
(56:29) own uh um uh that Sunglass Hut and stuff like that. They own a lot of those things, brands like that. So, so it and it will grow slowly, but it it's a it's it's it's got this great annuity because people once they start wearing glasses tend to continue to wear them. Um, you 
(56:44) know, they've got this idea that people get older, they wear glasses. And, you know, they're people have overestimated what exactly what you said. I don't think people are going to be wearing wearables either, but but you know, people thought, oh, they're going to they're going to be a tech company, and they're not a tech company. The technology is very cool, right? on the 
(57:01) on the eyewear side, on the lenses side, but it's not a tech company. It's just really a nice solid business, European business that is will, you know, is all over the world globally. Okay. But they all have a theme, all these picks, you know, they're kind of down right now. And you think a year to come back here? 
(57:18) You have a year to come back. Okay. And another good use for AI. I I just typed in what's another name for a men's neck scarf. Is it crevat or an ascot? Yes. That's not an ascot. They're the same thing. Just call them something. 
(57:33) Where do you get them if people want to look like Paul Harry? No. So, you know, there's a little story behind this. I have a friend whose father passed away. I used to wear them all the time. And so, she uh said to me, I'm going to give them to you. They're all like they're they're Well, not I'm boasting, but they're Hermes her and not mine. So, so I said, she goes, "But you have to wear them." 
(57:50) So, I wear them occasionally. So, but this is, like I said, I I wanted to I don't want to wear a bow tie here because I'd feel I'd be doing you a disservice. I appreciate that. The Crevat making its podcast debut. There you go, Paul. Thank you so much. So lovely to have you. This is lots of fun. This is Paul Harris joining us of Harris Douglas. Don't miss our next episode. We are doing a CEO profile. It was the biggest mining IPO since 2010. We've got 
(58:13) the CEO of Aluminina Metals. Joining us, Jordan Pandoff, company backed by Ross Bey, who of course has been prolific in the mining sector. We're going to talk about this new opportunity. Tune in to the next episode and we'll see you then. Heat. Heat.