← Jeffrey Gundlach hub  ·  Research hub  ·  Research library

Jeffrey Gundlach — We've Crossed to the Hard Side of the Street

"You're going to have fallout and losers in the AI race for the holy grail. And that's going to be what leads to the next very significant drawdown in the risk assets… I want to be out of the epicenter."
2026-SEP-16 · The Julia La Roche Show (in-studio) · Jeffrey Gundlach (DoubleLine Capital founder & CEO) · 1:01:40 · ▶ Watch · transcript · actionable insights
One-line take: Recorded the day before the September FOMC, this interview supplies the model portfolio the SEP-10 webcast cut off before — and it is built to hold zero AI. "Gundlach Unlocked" allocation: equities cut 40% → 30%, all in the DoubleLine Fortune 500 Equal Weight ETF (DFVE); fixed income 30% as a barbell — 15% DoubleLine Total Return (no corporates) + 15% EM local-currency debt (7%+, best bond sector); real assets 20% — 10% gold (back up from 5%) + 10% DCMT commodities (+38% YTD); "dry powder" 20% — 10% DCRE (CRE, duration 2, ~6%) + 10% the flexible income fund. Blended ~6.25% yield / duration 2 — a "Sherman ratio" above 3 that stays positive through a 200bp rate rise. Out of AI equities "starting last week." Credit: AI-linked junk +50bp and AI loans +130bp off the tights while non-AI sits near peak; CCC bank loans −5–6% total return; the bond market is rejecting agency ratings (SpaceX BBB- "persuaded," three notches wide; Oracle wide after issue); private-credit ratings arbitrage → life insurers/annuities owned by PE are "the bomb" — buy only from mutuals. Rates/Fed: CAPE 42 (every reading ≥35 → negative 10-yr real returns); CPI to "start with a 4" through March; view changed vs SEP-10 — now expects a 25bp hike (WIRP ~88%, 2-year 100bp over funds, Warsh's Jackson Hole "hiking" anecdote); a no-hike would lift the 30-year 20bp+ on the day. 7y-NGDP/Bund model says the 10-year is ~20bp too high, but he won't extend until a 2% real yield (~6%); 30-year TIPS don't hedge rising rates — 5 years and in do. Fiscal: $41T debt, Bessent's $6B Operation Twist "one day of the deficit"; endgame = debasement and/or restructuring. Energy: WTI $106, SPR near its physical floor, $8 diesel ($9.99 in California), Costco rationing motor oil. "We've crossed over to the hard side of the street for the next 6 to 9 months."

1. Stocks & names mentioned

The four DoubleLine products he named are tracked under their real tickers (DFVE, DCMT, DCRE; the mutual funds DBLTX and DFLEX as the I-share class — he said "my total return fund" and "DLEX, my flexible fund"). The non-DoubleLine sleeves keep the hub's asset-class proxies (GLD, EMLC, BKLN, SPY, TLT). Ads read by the host (Augusta Precious Metals, Monetary Metals) are excluded.

TickerNameResearchViewWhat Gundlach saidAt
DFVEDoubleLine Fortune 500 Equal Weight ETFQT · SA · STKPositiveHis entire equity sleeve — cut from 40% to 30% of the model portfolio, "30% in one thing": an equal-weighted Fortune 500 (revenue-ranked, ~440 names) index, so "you don't have 40% of your portfolio in AI. You have almost nothing."9:41
DBLTXDoubleLine Total Return Bond Fund (I share)SA · FAPositive15% of the portfolio — half the fixed-income sleeve in "my total return fund, which is very low risk. There's no corporate bonds in it, let alone AI bonds" — extremely high credit quality with a decent yield; the safe end of his barbell.10:32
EMLCEM local-currency debt (VanEck J.P. Morgan EM Local Currency Bond ETF — asset-class proxy)QT · SA · STKPositive15% — the risky end of the barbell: EM debt "yields over 7%" in local currency and "since I believe the dollar is heading lower, you're going to make money on the currency too." Best-performing traditional bond sector this year and last; "I've only allocated to local currency emerging markets once in my career" — this time, starting June a year ago.11:18
GLDGold (SPDR Gold Shares — asset-class proxy)QT · SA · STKPositive"Now up to 10% gold again." Was 25% a year ago, "pared that back to five when it was up over $5,000, but now it's down to 4,300 and so back to 10" — a valuation-driven rebalance inside a permanent gold allocation.11:57
DCMTDoubleLine Commodity Strategy ETFQT · SA · STKPositiveThe other 10% of real assets: "our commodity strategy… an ETF, DCMT," rules-based and rebalanced at the end of every month — "up 38% year-to-date. So that's doing awfully well."12:26
DCREDoubleLine Commercial Real Estate ETFQT · SA · STKPositiveHalf of the 20% "dry powder" — instead of cash: "very carefully managed… very high quality, top of the capital structure, duration of two, but it yields basically 6%. So it's a lot better than buying a T-bill."12:48
DFLEXDoubleLine Flexible Income Fund (I share)SA · FAPositiveThe other 10% of dry powder — "my flexible fund," a dual mandate to beat both cash and the Bloomberg bond index, achieved over 1, 3, 5, 10 years and since inception; "my favorite fund to manage." Together the mix yields ~6.25% at a duration of 2.13:17
Short-term TIPSShort-maturity Treasury Inflation-Protected SecuritiesPositive"The ones that protect you from inflation are 5 years and in." With CPI expected to start with a 4 through March, the short end is where inflation protection actually works.42:36
Crude oilCrude oil (WTI / Brent — commodity)NeutralAn inflation driver, not a trade: WTI "106 today," Brent higher, the SPR near the level where it physically can't be drawn further, global inventories at an all-time low, diesel $8 nationally ($9.99 in California), Costco rationing motor oil — "I don't see this energy price shock going away at all."21:59
BKLNBank loans / leveraged loans (Invesco Senior Loan ETF — asset-class proxy)QT · SA · STKNeutralSplitting: higher-rated loans "still doing fine… up about 4%," but CCC loans are down 5–6% total return and AI-linked loans are 130bp off their tights. Not in his model portfolio; a Fed hike "just puts more pressure on these bank loan floating rate borrowers." (Downgraded from Positive on SEP-10.)4:56
SPYCap-weighted S&P 500 (index proxy)QT · SA · STKNegativeShiller CAPE "42 point something"; "any time that it has been 35 or higher, every single time, the forward 10-year return in real terms has been negative," most commonly about −5% a year — with 2% inflation that means negative nominal returns for a decade, "no exceptions." Valuations still rising while Treasury yields are ~75bp higher than six months ago.1:23
AI equitiesAI / hyperscaler equity complexNegative"I was perfectly fine owning some AI by using other types of equity vehicles. But starting last week, I want out." Losers in "the AI race for the holy grail" will lead "the next very significant drawdown in the risk assets"; the narrative has flipped from AI lets us retire to Tahiti to AI "is going to kill us all."15:08
AI corporate bondsAI-sector corporate credit (high yield & bank loans)NegativeDecompose high yield into AI and non-AI: non-AI spreads "have barely widened," but AI junk bonds are "out about 50 basis points from their tights" and AI bank loans "more like 130." Hyperscaler bonds were rejected within days of issue ("75 over, my bid's 200 over"), yet borrowers "won't care if the rates go up 200 basis points."5:38
CCC bank loansCCC-rated leveraged loansNegative"The weakest bond market sector… is triple C bank loans, which are down several percent in price and about five or 6% in total return." Floating-rate, low-quality borrowers "playing beat the clock" until a cutting cycle — and there is "zero probability" of a cut at tomorrow's meeting.34:14
SPCXSpaceX (bonds)QT · SA · STK · FANegativeThe rating the market doesn't believe: SpaceX's bonds "widened out to levels about three notches lower in credit quality" than their BBB- rating, which he suspects "was encouraged by some persuasion of the rating agencies." And its claim of an addressable market of a quarter of global GDP "just doesn't work."6:30
ORCLOracle (bonds)QT · SA · STK · FANegative"The same thing happened with… Oracle, where… the bonds widened out tremendously right after it was issued. What the bond market is saying is these ratings don't make sense to us." (Auto-transcript garbles the rating detail — the point is market pricing below the agency rating.)6:55
TLTLong-term Treasuries (iShares 20+ Year Treasury Bond ETF — asset-class proxy)QT · SA · STK · FANegativeNot yet: "I want a real interest rate of 2%… inflation is more like at four. So I'd want to buy it at six," and he's "not convinced inflation is going to stop at four." Stay in the belly (7 years or shorter); "the long end continues to move higher if it's allowed to move of its own accord."31:40
Long-term TIPS30-year Treasury Inflation-Protected SecuritiesNegative"Most people don't understand that 30-year TIPS do not protect you from rising interest rates" — the nominal/TIPS yield gap has been constant for six years, so both rose ~500bp and "went down just as much as the nominals." "They haven't been [a safe haven] for years."42:06
Private creditPrivate credit funds / BDC-style lendersNegativeReported performance "was a lie"; seven or eight rating agencies let private-credit firms and their captive insurers arbitrage ratings ("you just get a price list"); one agency with 25 staff rated 3,200 deals; the DOJ is investigating. "The private credit is sort of the fuse and the insurance companies are the bomb."7:21
PE-owned life insurersPrivate-equity/private-credit-owned life insurers & annuity writersNegative"These insurance companies may fail." Owned by PE, forced to buy the sponsor's private credit, reinsured offshore (Barbados, Caymans) with reserve buffers cut from $14 to $10 per $100 — "if you're in the market for life insurance or annuities, you should get it only from mutual companies because they work for the policy holder."47:04

2. Talking points

1:23 CAPE 42 — negative real returns, "no exceptions"

2:01 The narrative flip — "AI is going to kill us all"

4:56 Decompose credit: CCC and AI crack, the rest holds

6:30 The market doesn't believe the ratings

8:52 Gundlach Unlocked — the four-part model portfolio

13:43 The Sherman ratio: 6.25% yield ÷ 2 duration

15:08 Out of AI "starting last week"

17:30 $40T crossed, then Bessent's Operation Twist

19:27 The endgame: inflate or restructure

21:10 Out of the epicenter — expect a shock within a year

21:59 Oil $106, SPR near its floor, $8 diesel

25:10 CPI "will start with a four" through March

28:34 The 10-year model: 7-yr NGDP + the Bund

31:40 Extend only at a 2% real yield — ~6% today

34:14 Fed tomorrow: zero chance of a cut; he now calls a 25bp hike

38:38 Advice for Bessent: "Resign while the getting's good"

40:15 The 2-year is 100bp above fed funds

41:01 Debasement goes mainstream; the dollar is not a safe haven

42:06 30-year TIPS don't protect you — 5 years and in do

43:21 Ratings under scrutiny — an echo of 2006

46:12 Life insurers & annuities: buy only from mutuals

51:05 Why money fled to private markets — and "semi-liquid"

55:12 Reckoning and bailout politics

1:01:23 "The hard side of the street" for 6–9 months

3. In plain English

A jargon-free summary of the thesis behind each call — what it actually is and why he makes it. (Plain-language companion to the table above; renders on each consolidated page.)

DFVE — DoubleLine Fortune 500 Equal Weight ETF Positive

Most stock index funds give the biggest companies the biggest weight, so a few AI giants make up a huge share. This fund instead holds the roughly 440 public companies on the Fortune 500 list (ranked by sales, not by stock-market value) in equal amounts, so each AI giant is only a sliver. Gundlach has put his whole stock allocation — 30% of his model portfolio, down from 40% — in it precisely because it keeps you "as far away from [AI] as you can" while still owning US businesses. It is a DoubleLine product.

DBLTX — DoubleLine Total Return Bond Fund Positive

DoubleLine's long-running flagship bond fund, mostly government-backed mortgage bonds. Gundlach stresses it holds no corporate bonds at all, so none of the AI borrowing he is worried about. It is the "safe" half of a barbell: 15% here for high credit quality and a decent yield, paired with 15% in riskier emerging-market debt.

EMLC — Emerging-market local-currency debt Positive

Government bonds of developing countries paid in their own currencies. They yield over 7%, and if the dollar keeps falling — as he expects — those currencies rise against it, adding a second source of return. It has been the best-performing traditional bond category, and he notes this is the only time in his career he has allocated to it. EMLC is a proxy fund; he named the asset class.

GLD — Gold Positive

Gundlach treats gold as a permanent holding but trades its size around price: 25% a year ago, cut to 5% when gold went over $5,000, and back to 10% now that it has fallen to about $4,300. The lesson is disciplined rebalancing — add when it gets cheaper, trim when it runs. GLD is just a fund that tracks gold.

DCMT — DoubleLine Commodity Strategy ETF Positive

A fund that holds a basket of raw materials (energy, metals, farm goods) through futures and follows fixed rules, rebalancing monthly. It is up 38% this year. With oil above $100, diesel at $8 and shortages spreading, Gundlach sees commodities as protection against the inflation shock he expects — 10% of his portfolio.

DCRE — DoubleLine Commercial Real Estate ETF Positive

Despite the scary name, this isn't a bet on office buildings. It owns the safest, first-in-line slices of commercial-property loan bonds, with a short "duration" of about two years (so rising rates barely dent its price), and yields around 6%. Gundlach uses it instead of cash: "a lot better than buying a T-bill" for money he's keeping ready to deploy.

DFLEX — DoubleLine Flexible Income Fund Positive

His "favorite fund to manage": a flexible bond fund that aims to beat both cash and the standard bond index, which he says it has done over 1, 3, 5 and 10 years. It is the second half of his "dry powder." Combined, his model portfolio yields about 6.25% with a duration of 2 — meaning rates could rise two full percentage points in a year and it would still make money. (He called it "DLEX"; the fund's institutional ticker is DFLEX.)

Short-term TIPS — inflation-protected Treasuries Positive

TIPS are Treasury bonds whose principal rises with inflation. Gundlach's point is that only the short ones — five years or less — actually protect you, because their price isn't swamped by moves in interest rates. With his model saying consumer inflation will run above 4% through March, short TIPS are the inflation hedge that works.

BKLN — Bank loans Neutral

Loans to below-investment-grade companies whose interest floats with short-term rates. A week ago he praised their ~7% yield; now he splits the market: better-rated loans are still up about 4%, but the weakest (CCC) loans have lost 5–6% and AI-linked loans have cheapened sharply. A Fed hike raises these borrowers' payments further. They are not in his model portfolio.

SPY — Cap-weighted S&P 500 Negative

The Shiller CAPE compares prices with ten years of inflation-adjusted earnings. It is above 42. Every time it has been 35 or higher, the next ten years delivered losses after inflation, typically about 5% a year. Meanwhile bonds now pay much more than they did six months ago, so stocks are getting more expensive relative to the safe alternative. He owns US stocks only through the equal-weight fund.

AI equities — the AI stock complex Negative

Gundlach used to hold some AI exposure; as of last week he wants none. His reasoning: an arms race where everyone borrows heavily to chase a "holy grail" must produce losers, and those failures will trigger the next big market drop. He also sees the public mood flipping from AI-euphoria to AI-fear — the kind of narrative turn that historically marks the end of a boom. He isn't shorting it; he just wants to be away from "the epicenter."

AI corporate bonds — AI-sector credit Negative

A "spread" is the extra interest a borrower pays over the government. Gundlach splits the junk-bond and loan markets in two: for non-AI companies the extra interest has hardly moved, but for AI-related borrowers it has jumped (about half a point on bonds, 1.3 points on loans). Some hyperscaler bonds were being bid at far worse prices within days of being sold. That gap is the market quietly flagging where the risk sits.

CCC bank loans — the weakest loans Negative

CCC is near the bottom of the credit scale. These companies borrowed at floating rates, so every rate hike raises their interest bill, and many are simply trying to survive until the Fed cuts. Gundlach sees no cut coming — rather a hike — so they are the worst-performing corner of the bond market, down 5–6%.

SPCX — SpaceX bonds Negative

Rating agencies graded SpaceX's debt BBB-, the lowest "investment grade." But bond buyers priced it as if it were about three steps lower, and Gundlach suspects the agencies were "persuaded." He also scoffs at SpaceX's claim that its potential market is a quarter of world GDP. His point: when market prices and official ratings disagree this much, trust the market.

ORCL — Oracle bonds Negative

Oracle has borrowed heavily to build AI data centers. Gundlach cites its new bonds as another case where prices fell sharply right after they were sold — buyers demanding far more interest than the rating implied. It is a comment on the debt, not a stock recommendation.

TLT — Long-term Treasuries Negative

Gundlach has a simple buy rule for long government bonds: he wants a yield 2 points above inflation. With inflation near 4%, that means waiting for about 6%. Until then he stays in bonds of seven years or less, expecting long yields to keep rising unless the government steps in (as with "Operation Twist"). Oddly, his fair-value model says the 10-year is slightly too high today — but not by enough to override the inflation math.

Long-term TIPS — 30-year inflation-protected Treasuries Negative

People afraid of long Treasuries often switch to 30-year TIPS, thinking inflation protection will save them. It didn't: over six years both kinds of bond saw their yields rise by the same ~5 points, so both lost about the same. Long TIPS protect against inflation, not against rising interest rates.

Private credit — non-bank lending funds Negative

Private credit funds lend directly to companies and report their own values. Gundlach says the reported returns proved inaccurate, and that a cottage industry of small rating agencies lets these firms pick favourable ratings — one 25-person agency rated 3,200 deals in a year. He expects this to end the way 2006-era mortgage ratings did: prices collapsing when buyers stop trusting the labels.

PE-owned life insurers — annuity & life policies Negative

Many life insurers and annuity companies have been bought by private-equity firms, which then steer the insurer's money into their own private loans and move the risk to lightly regulated offshore reinsurers. Gundlach calls private credit "the fuse" and these insurers "the bomb." His practical advice: if you buy an annuity or life insurance, buy it from a mutual insurer — one owned by its policyholders — not a PE-owned one.


Summary & timestamps derived from the public YouTube video (transcript in transcript.txt) for personal study. Not investment advice. © The Julia La Roche Show / DoubleLine Capital for source material.